Planning A Subaru Conversion...
- Tony Z
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Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...
Thee beetle box was made for approx 60hp, it can handle spirited driving up to about 100hp and the occasional thrash at about 140hp.
If you try dumping the clutch at 150hp or more (trust me you will when next to an M3 or Porsche or whatever), then you will destroy the gearbox. IF you put your foot flat on the floor when in third or 4th gear with that kind of power, you will eventually strip the gears or break the diff.
The gearbox wasnt made for that much power...
If you try dumping the clutch at 150hp or more (trust me you will when next to an M3 or Porsche or whatever), then you will destroy the gearbox. IF you put your foot flat on the floor when in third or 4th gear with that kind of power, you will eventually strip the gears or break the diff.
The gearbox wasnt made for that much power...
ANGRRR
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Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...
Got it. Thank you mi compadré.Tony Z wrote:Thee beetle box was made for approx 60hp, it can handle spirited driving up to about 100hp and the occasional thrash at about 140hp.
If you try dumping the clutch at 150hp or more (trust me you will when next to an M3 or Porsche or whatever), then you will destroy the gearbox. IF you put your foot flat on the floor when in third or 4th gear with that kind of power, you will eventually strip the gears or break the diff.
The gearbox wasnt made for that much power...
The Karmann Ghia- Gravitas & Dignitas infused with SERIOUS Cool...
- retrovan
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Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...
If I was you, I would take note of what Tony is saying.
If you take the Type 4 engine, after 30 years most still run with STD main and big end bearings, now that reliable.
If you fit Hydraulic tappets, you never have to "constantly adjust Tappets"
Fit a good electronic ignition, you will ride for years, and you will not have the "Water" thing to deal with.
And the Box will take the power and the clutch can go to 228mm, and never give you
Then you need to get Tony to give you a Mod's list, and you will have the sprintiest KG in town.
Just the difference between the type 4 engine and the type 3 engine in my Fastback was day and night.
If I had my way, all my cars will have type 4 engines.
Sorry, just thinking aloud.....
But as always your car, your happiness, your fun, as long as its on the road, its cool with us..
Herman
If you take the Type 4 engine, after 30 years most still run with STD main and big end bearings, now that reliable.
If you fit Hydraulic tappets, you never have to "constantly adjust Tappets"
Fit a good electronic ignition, you will ride for years, and you will not have the "Water" thing to deal with.
And the Box will take the power and the clutch can go to 228mm, and never give you
Then you need to get Tony to give you a Mod's list, and you will have the sprintiest KG in town.
Just the difference between the type 4 engine and the type 3 engine in my Fastback was day and night.
If I had my way, all my cars will have type 4 engines.
Sorry, just thinking aloud.....
But as always your car, your happiness, your fun, as long as its on the road, its cool with us..
Herman
1952 Split Beetle 1835cc
1968 Fastback 2Lt.type4
1972 Low Light Bay Panel Van 2Lt type 4
1975 Fleetline Panel Van 1914cc
2020 MeFusco Beetle Truck 2Lt type 4
1972 FT Hahn SP 1776 cc
1968 Fastback 2Lt.type4
1972 Low Light Bay Panel Van 2Lt type 4
1975 Fleetline Panel Van 1914cc
2020 MeFusco Beetle Truck 2Lt type 4
1972 FT Hahn SP 1776 cc
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Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...
Hi Herman. I appreciate your comments, as I do Tony's. Believe me, I've read enough on the forum to know your input comes from sound, practical experience. My issue is, unlike many of the good folks here, I'm not technical type of individual; and while I am looking forward to the experience of owning a classic Karmann bodied VW, the maintenance aspect interms of what I mentioned in my earlier post, is a concern.
It is interesting however, that you mention hydraulic lifters because initially when I bought the project, it was something I wanted done after having done some internet research, but the folks who sorted my motor at the time, thought I was talking gobbledy gook, and as a result of that I (wrongly) assumed it was not possible in South Africa. I even made mention of hydrauluc lifters in this thread:
http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopi ... =4&t=25343
Nonetheless, I did the following to my current motor:
The first thing I had done was have it taken in to have the existing mechanicals sorted. It has a dual port 1600 motor (I thought it was a single port, but was glad to find I was mistaken) which I intend to use while I search for an engine.
Because the car is going to be in daily use, I want an engine set up that can cope with this (daily driving)application. In the interim, below is the maintenance done to the engine and steering:
-Replaced steering box,
-New speedo clock & cable,
-Ignitor kit with Bosch coil and heavy duty plug leads,
-External high volume oil pump, filter housing and filter,
-New carburettor,
-New exhaust system,
-Engine service.
What else can I do to this motor to give me more reliability and zip. C'mon persuade me to stay a/c.
A concern that did arise that brought me to going down the Subaru route is the wisdom that if one modifies a motor to perform beyond it's standard measure, there is a greater likelihood it can go wrong; particularly when it comes to air cooled motors. Another reason why I considered a Subaru power plant, as they come standard with greater power.
It is interesting however, that you mention hydraulic lifters because initially when I bought the project, it was something I wanted done after having done some internet research, but the folks who sorted my motor at the time, thought I was talking gobbledy gook, and as a result of that I (wrongly) assumed it was not possible in South Africa. I even made mention of hydrauluc lifters in this thread:
http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopi ... =4&t=25343
Nonetheless, I did the following to my current motor:
The first thing I had done was have it taken in to have the existing mechanicals sorted. It has a dual port 1600 motor (I thought it was a single port, but was glad to find I was mistaken) which I intend to use while I search for an engine.
Because the car is going to be in daily use, I want an engine set up that can cope with this (daily driving)application. In the interim, below is the maintenance done to the engine and steering:
-Replaced steering box,
-New speedo clock & cable,
-Ignitor kit with Bosch coil and heavy duty plug leads,
-External high volume oil pump, filter housing and filter,
-New carburettor,
-New exhaust system,
-Engine service.
What else can I do to this motor to give me more reliability and zip. C'mon persuade me to stay a/c.
A concern that did arise that brought me to going down the Subaru route is the wisdom that if one modifies a motor to perform beyond it's standard measure, there is a greater likelihood it can go wrong; particularly when it comes to air cooled motors. Another reason why I considered a Subaru power plant, as they come standard with greater power.
The Karmann Ghia- Gravitas & Dignitas infused with SERIOUS Cool...
- retrovan
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Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...
Know where you coming from.
Let me put it this way.as I am by no any means an expert,
Was I in your shoes, I would do the following.
As the KG has its maximum value in a stock standard guise, you would want to return it to that state once you have had your fun with it, and want to move on to the next thing.
So I would leave the current motor as is, just drive with it and keep the car going till you have had an opportunity to get the type 4 the way you want it.
So, get a type 4 2lt motor, and collect the parts that you want to fit into it. I love the hunt for these parts, as that is half the fun.
Put them into a big box and ship it to Impi.. If anybody can pull it off, it will be Armand.
Let him build up the motor with an upright fan, with Alternator, with twin 34 Webers, with hydraulic lifters, with new oil pump, with balanced con-rods and pistons with new barrels, with a re-cut cam shaft, polish the heads, fit a nice S/Steel exhaust and then fit the 228 Clutch to it.
Once all that is done and it has been bench run in, then fit it to the KG, and store the old engine for future sale.
Now you have an engine that will rev, and run for ever with little maintenance, good power, fast from the lights, and a real joy to drive.
Best of all, you still have the trill of an aircooled, be it a power full reliable one. You will not get the feeling of having a Hack job, as its true to model and make. And you have not cut up an classic to do it.
Hacking a classic is like having tattoos, great idea at the time, but when the novelty wears off, dam painful to correct.
If you ever come to PE or maybe in George in Feb, you are welcome to drive my Fastback, then surely you will be hooked.
Hope this helps.....
Herman
Let me put it this way.as I am by no any means an expert,
Was I in your shoes, I would do the following.
As the KG has its maximum value in a stock standard guise, you would want to return it to that state once you have had your fun with it, and want to move on to the next thing.
So I would leave the current motor as is, just drive with it and keep the car going till you have had an opportunity to get the type 4 the way you want it.
So, get a type 4 2lt motor, and collect the parts that you want to fit into it. I love the hunt for these parts, as that is half the fun.
Put them into a big box and ship it to Impi.. If anybody can pull it off, it will be Armand.
Let him build up the motor with an upright fan, with Alternator, with twin 34 Webers, with hydraulic lifters, with new oil pump, with balanced con-rods and pistons with new barrels, with a re-cut cam shaft, polish the heads, fit a nice S/Steel exhaust and then fit the 228 Clutch to it.
Once all that is done and it has been bench run in, then fit it to the KG, and store the old engine for future sale.
Now you have an engine that will rev, and run for ever with little maintenance, good power, fast from the lights, and a real joy to drive.
Best of all, you still have the trill of an aircooled, be it a power full reliable one. You will not get the feeling of having a Hack job, as its true to model and make. And you have not cut up an classic to do it.
Hacking a classic is like having tattoos, great idea at the time, but when the novelty wears off, dam painful to correct.
If you ever come to PE or maybe in George in Feb, you are welcome to drive my Fastback, then surely you will be hooked.
Hope this helps.....
Herman
Last edited by retrovan on Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
1952 Split Beetle 1835cc
1968 Fastback 2Lt.type4
1972 Low Light Bay Panel Van 2Lt type 4
1975 Fleetline Panel Van 1914cc
2020 MeFusco Beetle Truck 2Lt type 4
1972 FT Hahn SP 1776 cc
1968 Fastback 2Lt.type4
1972 Low Light Bay Panel Van 2Lt type 4
1975 Fleetline Panel Van 1914cc
2020 MeFusco Beetle Truck 2Lt type 4
1972 FT Hahn SP 1776 cc
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Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...
Thanks Herman. I will certainly take this on board. I had never considered the Type IV option.
Herman/Tony, what would such a setup cost all in?
Herman/Tony, what would such a setup cost all in?
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Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...
Like this:
Staying Aircooled is so much nicer.
Do'nt assume anything- (While doing fault-finding).
Do'nt assume anything- (While doing fault-finding).
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Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...
This looks sweet Dawie! Tell me more about what you've got here Gov'nor?Dawie wrote:Like this:
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Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...
Picture was taken at the Cape Town aircooled event about 2 months ago. Do not know the owner. Engine is nicely sealed around the edges to prevent used hot air from recirculating back into the fan's intake.
Staying Aircooled is so much nicer.
Do'nt assume anything- (While doing fault-finding).
Do'nt assume anything- (While doing fault-finding).
- Tony Z
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Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...
That conversion does look good.
I am pretty sure it will involve cutting the engine bay slightly.
How much will a T4 with upright conversion cost? No idea, I have not done it.
As for stock reliability on a 1600 T1 with a little more power, that isnt too hard to achieve. A slight CR increase and some work in the right places... wont realise much more power but will open up the bottom end a bit. Same will apply to a T4 head.
BTW, AKG, when they rebuilt your engine, did they put new valves in your heads? Doesnt look like you asked them to open the engine.
Do you know how old the exhaust valves are?
I am pretty sure it will involve cutting the engine bay slightly.
How much will a T4 with upright conversion cost? No idea, I have not done it.
As for stock reliability on a 1600 T1 with a little more power, that isnt too hard to achieve. A slight CR increase and some work in the right places... wont realise much more power but will open up the bottom end a bit. Same will apply to a T4 head.
BTW, AKG, when they rebuilt your engine, did they put new valves in your heads? Doesnt look like you asked them to open the engine.
Do you know how old the exhaust valves are?
ANGRRR
http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopi ... 23&t=14775
1302S
http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopi ... 23&t=33521
Panel Van
http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopic.php?p=288723
http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopi ... 23&t=14775
1302S
http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopi ... 23&t=33521
Panel Van
http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopic.php?p=288723
vader wrote: The Force is strong with you young Sith Lord Z!
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Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...
Hi Tony. You are on the proverbial 'money' with your observation. I did not ask them to open the engine. The reason being, when I asked the garage about doing the porting of heads, fitting of hydraulic lifters etc, they told me they don't do that sort of thing. As a result, I opted to let them do the work they could do.Tony Z wrote:That conversion does look good.
I am pretty sure it will involve cutting the engine bay slightly.
How much will a T4 with upright conversion cost? No idea, I have not done it.
As for stock reliability on a 1600 T1 with a little more power, that isnt too hard to achieve. A slight CR increase and some work in the right places... wont realise much more power but will open up the bottom end a bit. Same will apply to a T4 head.
BTW, AKG, when they rebuilt your engine, did they put new valves in your heads? Doesnt look like you asked them to open the engine.
Do you know how old the exhaust valves are?
At the time the priority was to get the coach work up to par and the aesthetics right. Now that I am close to completing the coach work and interior, I'm turning my attention back to the mechanicals and exploring my options.
I will engage Impi regarding a T4 upright conversion and hear him out.
The Karmann Ghia- Gravitas & Dignitas infused with SERIOUS Cool...
- Tony Z
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Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...
the best advise I can give you is that if you dont know how old your exhaust valves are, then you need to change them for new.
They only last about 80 000 km before you really have to start wondering when they will break and destroy your engine.
Think about it, its a fair amount of labour but the valves are cheap.
I think the newer mexican engines had hydraulic lifters in the T1 1600 design, but to my knowledge, they used a different case design.
They only last about 80 000 km before you really have to start wondering when they will break and destroy your engine.
Think about it, its a fair amount of labour but the valves are cheap.
I think the newer mexican engines had hydraulic lifters in the T1 1600 design, but to my knowledge, they used a different case design.
ANGRRR
http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopi ... 23&t=14775
1302S
http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopi ... 23&t=33521
Panel Van
http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopic.php?p=288723
http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopi ... 23&t=14775
1302S
http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopi ... 23&t=33521
Panel Van
http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopic.php?p=288723
vader wrote: The Force is strong with you young Sith Lord Z!
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Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...
Thanks for the insight and tips. I will need to consider my options regarding the T1. This conversion idea will need a little more meditation and research. The ACVW forum and its' members, as always, is proving invaluable.Tony Z wrote:the best advise I can give you is that if you dont know how old your exhaust valves are, then you need to change them for new.
They only last about 80 000 km before you really have to start wondering when they will break and destroy your engine.
Think about it, its a fair amount of labour but the valves are cheap.
I think the newer mexican engines had hydraulic lifters in the T1 1600 design, but to my knowledge, they used a different case design.
Thank you.
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Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...
I saw that someone mentioned the 2.0 8v water cooled option. This is a seriously nice engine choice for the beetle based cars out there. I was also looking at the Subaru route on my speedster and the cost of a clutch kit for this motor is almost double as to what a complete 2.0 8v motor costs. Parts for Subaru's in South Africa is nuts, basic service items can quickly add to a few thousand rand and plus finding a good motor (N/A) is an uphill battle, because the ones that are out there have usually been sitting in storage for a LONG time.
Prepare for a bill of about R30 000 to do a 2.0 8 v conversion properly using stock fuel injection. This is a DIY price. I can see a shop adding 10-15k to that to do it.
I decided against staying air-cooled because of the price of parts, availibility of GOOD parts as well as peace of mind.
Prepare for a bill of about R30 000 to do a 2.0 8 v conversion properly using stock fuel injection. This is a DIY price. I can see a shop adding 10-15k to that to do it.
I decided against staying air-cooled because of the price of parts, availibility of GOOD parts as well as peace of mind.
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Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...
I have also been looking at it; the 2.1 wasserboxer (as I've come across quite a few of them) but the feedback I got (regarding their reliability) was that they aren't so great. I haven't done too much else in terms of research as I've been hemmed at work. Just how reliable a solution are these?flatfourfan wrote:I saw that someone mentioned the 2.0 8v water cooled option. This is a seriously nice engine choice for the beetle based cars out there. I was also looking at the Subaru route on my speedster and the cost of a clutch kit for this motor is almost double as to what a complete 2.0 8v motor costs. Parts for Subaru's in South Africa is nuts, basic service items can quickly add to a few thousand rand and plus finding a good motor (N/A) is an uphill battle, because the ones that are out there have usually been sitting in storage for a LONG time.
Prepare for a bill of about R30 000 to do a 2.0 8 v conversion properly using stock fuel injection. This is a DIY price. I can see a shop adding 10-15k to that to do it.
I decided against staying air-cooled because of the price of parts, availibility of GOOD parts as well as peace of mind.
The Karmann Ghia- Gravitas & Dignitas infused with SERIOUS Cool...