67 Panelvan

Give details and pictures of your ACVW projects here.
User avatar
Tony Z
Donor
Donor
Posts: 14992
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:33 am
What model do you have?: 2.3L 69; 1302; P/Van
Location: Klipheuwel (near Durbanville), Cape Town or working at sea
Has thanked: 191 times
Been thanked: 487 times
South Africa

Re: 67 Panelvan

Post by Tony Z »

Wash the affected acid area with a neutraliser. Google what to use - might be as simple as bicarb and water. You need to get the acid back to a pH of 7 before it eats the metal

Start by checking your ground cable and the wiring conntections to and from your starter. Any loose connection or badly made (corroded) connection will sap voltage, increase resistance and drop current, which all causes the engine not to start.
The other thing to consider, is installing a start relay to take the load off your ignition switch and use the relay for this load.

Dont know about the over charge, but it doesnt sound good. Check your alternator voltage, it shouldnt be more than 14.4V (from memory).

@retrovan - Herman might be able to give more info


Dawie
Fuel Injection
Posts: 2110
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:25 pm
What model do you have?: Aircooled, various
Location: Kaapstadt
Has thanked: 42 times
Been thanked: 207 times
South Africa

Re: 67 Panelvan

Post by Dawie »

As a test, on the starter, (while installed), make contact between the big positive terminal and the smaller spade terminal. Be careful to not short something to chassis while doing this. Obviously make double sure transmission is in neutral...

From one of your previous pictures it looks like you have the 74 type alternator which require an external regulator. Next step would be to test charging voltage. Using a multimeter while engine is running at various rpms.
Staying Aircooled is so much nicer.
Do'nt assume anything- (While doing fault-finding).
User avatar
retrovan
Donor
Donor
Posts: 8709
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:51 pm
What model do you have?: 52T1,68FB,72Bay,75FL
Location: Eich! no, in Jefferys Bay
Has thanked: 421 times
Been thanked: 539 times
Contact:
Netherlands

Re: 67 Panelvan

Post by retrovan »

Think you have the age old problem of worn starter bush in the bell housing, OR the incorrect size bush for that starter.

Normally you can pull the bush out using a long nose and opening the jaw inside the bush, and by forcing the long nose open, and pulling it should come out.

If not, remove the starter and get a thread tap or easy out and screw it in, then pull, if you have not got these, then a bit of threaded bar, with a v cut into the 1st few threads, turn it into the bush and pull.

When you have the bush out, check the outside diameter, and also the outer diameter of the starter shaft.

Midas will have these bushes, if you have a big outside bush and small starter bush, you may have to get the two different bushes and fit them into each other.

Please note they must be made of Phosphor bronze and not brass, as the brass bush will last only a few starts and do the same thing.

When you have the correct bush, prime it by closing the bottom with your thumb, fill it with engine oil, and compress the oil with your index finger.

This will force the oil through the wall of the bush, saturating the bush with oil, NB, press hard till you see the oil come through the wall of the bush.

Now your bush will be primed, and last as long as the starter. If you do not prime the bush it will fear out within a year.

When your engine is running check the charging rate as Fig said, not more then 15 v on max revs, and 12.5 v on ideal approx.

Good luck..

Herman
1952 Split Beetle 1835cc
1968 Fastback 2Lt.type4
1972 Low Light Bay Panel Van 2Lt type 4
1975 Fleetline Panel Van 1914cc
2020 MeFusco Beetle Truck 2Lt type 4
1972 FT Hahn SP 1776 cc
User avatar
Donovan D
Donor
Donor
Posts: 2229
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 6:27 pm
What model do you have?: 67 Panel
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=536371512
Location: Brackenfell
Has thanked: 148 times
Been thanked: 73 times
South Africa

Re: 67 Panelvan

Post by Donovan D »

Thanks for all the info guys.
I checked all the connections and replaced my worn earth strap between body and gearbox.
Got the primed bronze bush in and got the starter back on. I did get the starter relay but did not install it as the kombi used to start easily without it.
Still no go !?!?
The starter sounds like its doing its thing for about 2 seconds and then just clicks.
The volt meter connected to the battery drops from 12.55 to 11.00 when turning the ignition and engaging the starter. When looking at the engine while turning the key I can see that its just on the border line of starting. The engine starts to turn but then stops as the starter starts clicking. I can also turn the engine by hand so Im pretty sure its not the engine.
Im considering installing the relay tomorrow but dont want to install it if there is a bigger problem somewhere. Not too sure how they tested the starter but Im wondering if its not faulty when under load.
---------- 67 Panelvan -----------
---------- 56 Oval ----------
User avatar
retrovan
Donor
Donor
Posts: 8709
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:51 pm
What model do you have?: 52T1,68FB,72Bay,75FL
Location: Eich! no, in Jefferys Bay
Has thanked: 421 times
Been thanked: 539 times
Contact:
Netherlands

Re: 67 Panelvan

Post by retrovan »

Why not boost the battery by using jumper leads from another battery, and see if it will start then, if not, connect the jumper leads to the starter connection that comes from its own battery, then try again.

if it starts then, then you know it a cable connection problem, also clean your battery terminals with strong Bi carb solution as you may be loosing current via dirty connections from the battery leads.

Faulty starter normally will not swing even once, so not sure its the starter. could however be the Bendix ( the funny thing on top of the starter)

Could be that the contacts inside the Bendix are too far gone.

Herman
1952 Split Beetle 1835cc
1968 Fastback 2Lt.type4
1972 Low Light Bay Panel Van 2Lt type 4
1975 Fleetline Panel Van 1914cc
2020 MeFusco Beetle Truck 2Lt type 4
1972 FT Hahn SP 1776 cc
User avatar
Donovan D
Donor
Donor
Posts: 2229
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 6:27 pm
What model do you have?: 67 Panel
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=536371512
Location: Brackenfell
Has thanked: 148 times
Been thanked: 73 times
South Africa

Re: 67 Panelvan

Post by Donovan D »

Getting the relay on today and testing with different starter.
I suppose the earth and ignition wire can be anyway around ??

Think this is Pine's pic
autorelay.jpg

Random internet pic
diagram.jpg

Is the circuit then completed with no 30 and 87 when turning the key instead of the ignition wire running all the way back to the starter ?? Should these two wires then be a thicker gauge ?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
---------- 67 Panelvan -----------
---------- 56 Oval ----------
User avatar
Tony Z
Donor
Donor
Posts: 14992
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:33 am
What model do you have?: 2.3L 69; 1302; P/Van
Location: Klipheuwel (near Durbanville), Cape Town or working at sea
Has thanked: 191 times
Been thanked: 487 times
South Africa

Re: 67 Panelvan

Post by Tony Z »

Hi D

Currently, you have a wire running from your ignition (key) switch running into the starter solenoid. From here it passes to ground.

Now, you remove that wire from the solenoid on the starter and connect it to the solenoid on the relay (86). From there, you run a new wire to ground from 85.
You should be able swap 85 and 86 around. I dont have one in front of me to look at the diagram - there is a wiring diagram on its cover.

Then you take a new wire, rated for 15A (1.5mm), run it from the battery to a 15A fuse and then into the switch side of the relay (30 or 87). Then you take another 1.5mm wire and run it from the last remaining terminal (30 or 87) and run this into your starter where the ignition wire originally connect.

Thats it... not too difficult. Look at the diagram and see if you can figure it out.
User avatar
Donovan D
Donor
Donor
Posts: 2229
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 6:27 pm
What model do you have?: 67 Panel
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=536371512
Location: Brackenfell
Has thanked: 148 times
Been thanked: 73 times
South Africa

Re: 67 Panelvan

Post by Donovan D »

Still no luck.

New earth strap between body and gearbox.
tested with 2 new batteries
new starter bush in gearbox
hard start relay installed
new starter installed

Still no start, The new starter definitely makes a lot more noise than the old one and sounds a lot more crispy. It spins but just wont turn the engine. If i turn the engine by hand after trying to start it with the starter I can hear a clear click coming from the starter. I believe the sound is the starter disengaging ?

There are two main differences between my old starter and the new one. The splines itself differ in length, the new is longer. The new starter also has a little lip on the shaft that goes into bush. Would any of these two differences be an issue ? The starter is marked as beetle. I do have a beetle gearbox in the kombi and also a 1600TP engine.
I am completely lost at the moment as to what the cause could be.
Could electric/wiring still be the problem ?

Image
Image
---------- 67 Panelvan -----------
---------- 56 Oval ----------
User avatar
retrovan
Donor
Donor
Posts: 8709
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:51 pm
What model do you have?: 52T1,68FB,72Bay,75FL
Location: Eich! no, in Jefferys Bay
Has thanked: 421 times
Been thanked: 539 times
Contact:
Netherlands

Re: 67 Panelvan

Post by retrovan »

Donovan I still think its your Battery leads being dirty.

They corrode between the clamp and the wire.

Maybe its a good idea to replace both cables with new ones, with new battery clamps and lugs.

Also make sure you have the body well cleaned with sandpaper before fitting the new Negative lead to the body.

Both starter are fine, both will work.

Herman
1952 Split Beetle 1835cc
1968 Fastback 2Lt.type4
1972 Low Light Bay Panel Van 2Lt type 4
1975 Fleetline Panel Van 1914cc
2020 MeFusco Beetle Truck 2Lt type 4
1972 FT Hahn SP 1776 cc
User avatar
acpaterson
Carburettor
Posts: 1960
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:50 pm
What model do you have?: Winston, a 74 Bay
Location: Parklands, Cape Town
Has thanked: 80 times
Been thanked: 131 times
Contact:
South Africa

Re: 67 Panelvan

Post by acpaterson »

Donovan,
take either your battery, or another one under the bus, take your jumper leads and connect it straight to the Starter motor, and earth on gearbox. OBVIOUSLY MAKE SURE it's in neutral. try like that first, and see if it spins the motor no problem. If it does, get your Idiot lights and ignition on, (same, or different battery. try again. Bus SHOULD start.
If it does, similar to what Herman is saying, then there's a possible problem in your main wiring loom from the Battery at back, to the fusebox and starter. I dunno where, possibly a break in your main feed, or your earth strap from Battery is kak somewhere.

If it does the SAME thing through your jumper cables under the bus, then I dunno boet.

I fitted a relay many moons back to help with the load on the ign switch. Good luck dude. (PS. did you try with two batts jumpered? ie: Double Amp load? Did it not start like that?

Alan
User avatar
acpaterson
Carburettor
Posts: 1960
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:50 pm
What model do you have?: Winston, a 74 Bay
Location: Parklands, Cape Town
Has thanked: 80 times
Been thanked: 131 times
Contact:
South Africa

Re: 67 Panelvan

Post by acpaterson »

PS. remember that possible fuel drip? Is it sorted? Ive heard my bus struggle to turn when I've worked on the carbs, and accidently flooded the intake manifold with fuel.. it strains to turn, and then just manages to overcome pressure and fires up.
Have spare batts, and relays, have whatsapped you if you want to try some options this morning.

Al
User avatar
sean
Transmission
Posts: 2400
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:51 pm
What model do you have?: Bays & Splits
Location: Somerset West
Has thanked: 63 times
Been thanked: 227 times
South Africa

Re: 67 Panelvan

Post by sean »

Hi Donovan

That new starter might not be correct. Generally the longer bendix is for the 2.0 type 4 bellhousing. That will be an issue in the beetle box.

Do you not perhaps have another gearbox or bellhousing around to test the starters in a remote option?
Dawie
Fuel Injection
Posts: 2110
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:25 pm
What model do you have?: Aircooled, various
Location: Kaapstadt
Has thanked: 42 times
Been thanked: 207 times
South Africa

Re: 67 Panelvan

Post by Dawie »

Some incorrect universal parts cross-references out there.

Basically 3 types starters used by manual trans acvws:

1) "6V" type which fits 180mm flywheels from 6V type 1, 2, and 3 cars. Called "SR11"

2) Anything which has the 200mm "type 1" flywheel, or 210 or 215mm "type 4" flywheel, uses "SR15" starter. Including an older car which had the later flywheel fitted, and including 411/412 cars and 1600/ 1700/ 1800 baywindows, but excluding 76-onwards 2L bays. This is by far the most common starter for acvws.

3) 2L bays have "SR87" type starter, (with the longer gear to reach the ring gear). Different bellhousing goes with this starter, to accomodate the large 228mm flywheel.

Starter from automatic:
In place of number 2) "SR15", one could also use the "self supported" starter from an automatic type 3 or automatic 411/412. (Porsche 914 and early 911 also uses this one.) Does not need the gearbox bushing, and is slightly stronger.
So called "SR 17" starter. Drops in, no modification.
Staying Aircooled is so much nicer.
Do'nt assume anything- (While doing fault-finding).
User avatar
Donovan D
Donor
Donor
Posts: 2229
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 6:27 pm
What model do you have?: 67 Panel
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=536371512
Location: Brackenfell
Has thanked: 148 times
Been thanked: 73 times
South Africa

Re: 67 Panelvan

Post by Donovan D »

Thanks again for all the info and advice.

The starter I got from goeie hoop is marked as a Lucas-VW Beetle 70 > 79, S90 starter.
Re - Retrovan, Sean and Dawie's post, Im still unsure if this is a correct starter ? I dont want to mess about if its not the right one or damage and ding this one and then not be able to return it if its not the correct one.
---------- 67 Panelvan -----------
---------- 56 Oval ----------
User avatar
sean
Transmission
Posts: 2400
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:51 pm
What model do you have?: Bays & Splits
Location: Somerset West
Has thanked: 63 times
Been thanked: 227 times
South Africa

Re: 67 Panelvan

Post by sean »

Hi Donovan.

I'm at the factory in Brackenfell today if you want to swing around and test them. I have a test setup for it.
Post Reply