timing jumping = impossible to set (type 4)
- retrovan
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Re: timing jumping = impossible to set (type 4)
This is an electrical problem, you need to address this in a systematic way.
I would get a distributor form a running driving car and fit it complete with out removing any parts.
Feed it strait from the battery and earth it strait to the battery as well.
Look at the age old overlooked thing we all do, and that is to mix up 3 and 4 leads. make sure you have them right, get fresh eye to look at it.
Fit NEW NGK plugs or take out of a running engine.
That will be your starting point. Then exchange you parts back, one at a time.
Till you find the issue.
OR, start by fitting new cap and wires on your dizzy, check your rotor is the correct one for the dizzy
Good luck
Herman
I would get a distributor form a running driving car and fit it complete with out removing any parts.
Feed it strait from the battery and earth it strait to the battery as well.
Look at the age old overlooked thing we all do, and that is to mix up 3 and 4 leads. make sure you have them right, get fresh eye to look at it.
Fit NEW NGK plugs or take out of a running engine.
That will be your starting point. Then exchange you parts back, one at a time.
Till you find the issue.
OR, start by fitting new cap and wires on your dizzy, check your rotor is the correct one for the dizzy
Good luck
Herman
1952 Split Beetle 1835cc
1968 Fastback 2Lt.type4
1972 Low Light Bay Panel Van 2Lt type 4
1975 Fleetline Panel Van 1914cc
2020 MeFusco Beetle Truck 2Lt type 4
1972 FT Hahn SP 1776 cc
1968 Fastback 2Lt.type4
1972 Low Light Bay Panel Van 2Lt type 4
1975 Fleetline Panel Van 1914cc
2020 MeFusco Beetle Truck 2Lt type 4
1972 FT Hahn SP 1776 cc
- marcw
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Re: timing jumping = impossible to set (type 4)
Thank you Herman for the focus on sanity.
I changed the spark plugs (did all of them in one go since I dont want to do an in out with the plugs on my 40 year old heads) and the wandering has halved.
At idle, 900 rpm, it wanders from 5 to 9 degrees but mostly looking at 7.5 BTC.
At 3000 rpm it wanders from 28 to 32 but is mostly at 30 degrees.
With the vacuum canister connected it goes to between 40 and 45 degrees at 4000 rpm.
The car drives and the engine seems to be 'OK'. I say 'OK' because its not perfect yet, but derivable.
So to everyone out there I have learned the lesson of dont assume anything. Even if a set of plugs is only 1200 Kms old there could be a funny one in there. I am not chalking the misfire to the plugs and the wandering to an old engine with an old dizzy.
Lastly - don't anyone say "I told you so" please
AND here is holding thumbs for the next 1000 Kms. I will check every day when I get back from work to make sure it remains as is.
I changed the spark plugs (did all of them in one go since I dont want to do an in out with the plugs on my 40 year old heads) and the wandering has halved.
At idle, 900 rpm, it wanders from 5 to 9 degrees but mostly looking at 7.5 BTC.
At 3000 rpm it wanders from 28 to 32 but is mostly at 30 degrees.
With the vacuum canister connected it goes to between 40 and 45 degrees at 4000 rpm.
The car drives and the engine seems to be 'OK'. I say 'OK' because its not perfect yet, but derivable.
So to everyone out there I have learned the lesson of dont assume anything. Even if a set of plugs is only 1200 Kms old there could be a funny one in there. I am not chalking the misfire to the plugs and the wandering to an old engine with an old dizzy.
Lastly - don't anyone say "I told you so" please
AND here is holding thumbs for the next 1000 Kms. I will check every day when I get back from work to make sure it remains as is.
- retrovan
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Re: timing jumping = impossible to set (type 4)
Glad it helped, I have had One of 4 plugs fail on a regular basis, mostly when using Champions.
On NGK, not so much. VW aircooled motors run better on NGK
Use "7" plugs as they will not per-ignite when hot.
On the type 4 motor I use the BPR7ESZ-N and on the Beetle motor I use BPR7HS or BP7HS
Let the car settle in and get some K's on it, then set timing again.
During this time, after a run, before you switch off, feel the coil, if its too hot to hold for 20 seconds, then change it, if only warm, then you have a keeper.
Have Fun
Herman
On NGK, not so much. VW aircooled motors run better on NGK
Use "7" plugs as they will not per-ignite when hot.
On the type 4 motor I use the BPR7ESZ-N and on the Beetle motor I use BPR7HS or BP7HS
Let the car settle in and get some K's on it, then set timing again.
During this time, after a run, before you switch off, feel the coil, if its too hot to hold for 20 seconds, then change it, if only warm, then you have a keeper.
Have Fun
Herman
1952 Split Beetle 1835cc
1968 Fastback 2Lt.type4
1972 Low Light Bay Panel Van 2Lt type 4
1975 Fleetline Panel Van 1914cc
2020 MeFusco Beetle Truck 2Lt type 4
1972 FT Hahn SP 1776 cc
1968 Fastback 2Lt.type4
1972 Low Light Bay Panel Van 2Lt type 4
1975 Fleetline Panel Van 1914cc
2020 MeFusco Beetle Truck 2Lt type 4
1972 FT Hahn SP 1776 cc
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Re: timing jumping = impossible to set (type 4)
Thats good news. Are you using LRP or unleaded, or maybe used some additive which could have contributed to fouled plugs? Plug gaps- i use 0.6- 0.7mm max.
Staying Aircooled is so much nicer.
Do'nt assume anything- (While doing fault-finding).
Do'nt assume anything- (While doing fault-finding).
- marcw
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Re: timing jumping = impossible to set (type 4)
Well there is something else wrong for sure.
Yesterday after New everything; Sparks, wires, cap, rotor, condenser, and coil, she ran with a rock solid to.ing mark for about 30 minutes. I was over the moon tho king all was well. It started to run perfectly when I changed the coil.
Then suddenly she has started to wander and miss and splitter again.
The noise was also significantly reduced for that time, but now with the timing wandering the ding is back.
Yesterday after New everything; Sparks, wires, cap, rotor, condenser, and coil, she ran with a rock solid to.ing mark for about 30 minutes. I was over the moon tho king all was well. It started to run perfectly when I changed the coil.
Then suddenly she has started to wander and miss and splitter again.
The noise was also significantly reduced for that time, but now with the timing wandering the ding is back.
- Tony Z
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Re: timing jumping = impossible to set (type 4)
if you have a multimeter, please measure your coils primary resistance. If its under 3 ohms, you might have the wrong coil and thats frying your points and/or condensor
ANGRRR
http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopi ... 23&t=14775
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Panel Van
http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopic.php?p=288723
http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopi ... 23&t=14775
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http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopic.php?p=288723
vader wrote: The Force is strong with you young Sith Lord Z!
- retrovan
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Re: timing jumping = impossible to set (type 4)
Go to Bosch and get the right coil, it would seam you have cooked the coil again.
Herman
Herman
1952 Split Beetle 1835cc
1968 Fastback 2Lt.type4
1972 Low Light Bay Panel Van 2Lt type 4
1975 Fleetline Panel Van 1914cc
2020 MeFusco Beetle Truck 2Lt type 4
1972 FT Hahn SP 1776 cc
1968 Fastback 2Lt.type4
1972 Low Light Bay Panel Van 2Lt type 4
1975 Fleetline Panel Van 1914cc
2020 MeFusco Beetle Truck 2Lt type 4
1972 FT Hahn SP 1776 cc
- marcw
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Re: timing jumping = impossible to set (type 4)
Ok so I purchased an entire New distributor (dont say anything bad please because it is an electronic one).
The timing is now rock solid again. For how long I do not know but looks good. So far she has done an hour of running and is still good.
The now three coils that I have (one black and two Brazil Bosch blue stickets) all have ok resistance. Primary is 3.2 on the Brazil and 3.0 on the black.
She still has the splutter and miss happening so today is carburetor day. I think that I must find the problem for the missfire whilst the timing is good before I go back to points. With the engine running properly I can focus better on finding what the issue was with the points distributor. AND i have to find that out for pure sanity sakes.
Last I did compression test and cylinder 1 = 140, 2 = 135, 3 = 135 and 4 = 130 psi when dry. For wet they all went to +- 145 which is a minor change if I am not mistaken and shows the rings and valves are ok. They should be since rings are new and heads built by McDonald in April.
The timing is now rock solid again. For how long I do not know but looks good. So far she has done an hour of running and is still good.
The now three coils that I have (one black and two Brazil Bosch blue stickets) all have ok resistance. Primary is 3.2 on the Brazil and 3.0 on the black.
She still has the splutter and miss happening so today is carburetor day. I think that I must find the problem for the missfire whilst the timing is good before I go back to points. With the engine running properly I can focus better on finding what the issue was with the points distributor. AND i have to find that out for pure sanity sakes.
Last I did compression test and cylinder 1 = 140, 2 = 135, 3 = 135 and 4 = 130 psi when dry. For wet they all went to +- 145 which is a minor change if I am not mistaken and shows the rings and valves are ok. They should be since rings are new and heads built by McDonald in April.
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Re: timing jumping = impossible to set (type 4)
Do some fault-finding first, to find exactly which cylinders are misfiring. Then take it from there.
Staying Aircooled is so much nicer.
Do'nt assume anything- (While doing fault-finding).
Do'nt assume anything- (While doing fault-finding).
- marcw
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Re: timing jumping = impossible to set (type 4)
I tried to disconnect the spark from each cylinder 1 by 1 however, the engine wont continue running nor will it start with any of the leads disconnected.
Whilst running if I disconnect any lead she stalls immediately.
Whilst running if I disconnect any lead she stalls immediately.
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Re: timing jumping = impossible to set (type 4)
Then use another way. Like feel temperature of each individual exhaust pipe where it exits heads. Temporarily remove the 2 bottom plates for easy access. See if one pipe is still cold.
Staying Aircooled is so much nicer.
Do'nt assume anything- (While doing fault-finding).
Do'nt assume anything- (While doing fault-finding).
- marcw
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Re: timing jumping = impossible to set (type 4)
Ok so final update.
I serviced the carbs, could not find anything wrong at all. Float level fine, pump jets correct cc, everything looked clean.
Put them back on and she started first time. No more missfire either.
I put the points back in, and again she started first time.
So timing set to 30 degrees at 3000 rpm and she ran ok on a 20 km test drive.
The ding that was a ting has disappeared as well.
She is still not 100% though as there is a splutter at 3500 rpm. But driveable at last.
I serviced the carbs, could not find anything wrong at all. Float level fine, pump jets correct cc, everything looked clean.
Put them back on and she started first time. No more missfire either.
I put the points back in, and again she started first time.
So timing set to 30 degrees at 3000 rpm and she ran ok on a 20 km test drive.
The ding that was a ting has disappeared as well.
She is still not 100% though as there is a splutter at 3500 rpm. But driveable at last.
- sean
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