Added juice to run an ice install

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bugspray
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Added juice to run an ice install

Post by bugspray » Thu May 21, 2009 1:56 pm

:hangloose: hoezit guys. We all know a std beetle isnt the most powerfull of machines to run a decent sound instal. So most other audio forums reccommend adding another battery, or upgrading the std alternator. This will result in sufficient juice going to the amp and cap (If installed).
My qestion is... Is the standard alternator upgradable? and how would a 2nd battery be installed?
Shot.


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Re: Added juice to run an ice install

Post by jmvv » Thu May 21, 2009 5:26 pm

Yes the alternator is upgradable or you can get a high power unit (if I remember right, Calooker had one avaliable some time ago)

There are specialist rewinders that can rewind the alternator to deliver about 93 Ampere.

You do not need a second battery if you buy clever.

First decide what type of system you want General/SPL/Sound Quality

Invest in an efficient amplifier that will deliver high output without excessively high input current.
(Beware of some stupid claims from shiny Chines :bn:)
A good 2 channel amp can drive a front stage as well as a subwoofer in "tri-mode"

Get a real wiring kit - not the R199 rubbish sold at some "speed shops". You will get burned - literally.

Get a subwoofer that can deliver the goods (beware of the 2000watt 12 inch claims - do your homework sound output is measured in RMS Watts not PMPO or MAX)

If you are going to use a subwoofer, DO NOT USE 6x9's.

Install your subwoofer in a properly designed box specially made for that sub - stay away from the generic 12" ported type boxes. They suck and sound really :bn: :bn:

A properly designed ported box will give you anywhere from 2dB to 6dB boost at the tuned frequency (that is free output from the sub that you get for the same power input)

A well designed co-axial front stage can sound better than a rubbish split system.

A capacitor is not necessary, but if you are going to hammer the system, get one.

If you are going to show off your sound to your buddies, start the engine and let it idle. This will prevent the battery voltage dropping to critical levels on current regulated amps and will prevent the smoke running out.

A nice system for a Beetle:
Front loader / MP3 player with at least 2 pairs of RCA outputs
High power 6½" coaxial speakers for a front stage
12" subwoofer in a ported enclosure, tuned correctly
4 channel amplifier
1 Farad cap (optional)
Good quality wiring kit
Ballpark price for theabove, about R6K VAT and fitting included.

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Re: Added juice to run an ice install

Post by Tony Z » Thu May 21, 2009 5:49 pm

Good info above.

I dont agree with the ported enclosure giving good sound, but THAT IS A PERSONAL OPINION.

Try arrange to listen to the sound of a ported enclosure (properly designed) and a sealed enclosure (properly designed). I love the response and clarity of a sealed box.

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Re: Added juice to run an ice install

Post by bugspray » Thu May 21, 2009 6:25 pm

Awesome shot jmw. Im also with tony. A seald box, is more forgiving. I know most of what you said already. I just was looking at the bug alternator and wiring up a 2nd battery. Hows it done? and would the standard alt. Fry if it had to charge both batteries?? i wanna maybe move the original battery to the boot also. How would that be done?
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Re: Added juice to run an ice install

Post by bugspray » Thu May 21, 2009 6:40 pm

Oh and this is mostly for future reference. My set up will be SQ, although a bugs a perfect SPL car. But im more a fan of quality.
A dvd deck, 3 rca output
single screen upfront.
6.1/4" splits front stage.
8" sub front stage bass
5" co axials rear fill
1x 12" or 2x 10" sub.
2x 2ch amps to run all of this,
Passive x.over
1 farad cap
4guage wiring
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Re: Added juice to run an ice install

Post by Tony Z » Thu May 21, 2009 6:40 pm

An alternator will deliver what the batterys are asking for. Adding another battery wont make any difference to what the alternator sees. If they are both drained however, the alternator will run at high load for longer, which might hurt it.

To put the battery up front, you will just need to run the wires to the front too, but you will have to go up 1 or 2 sizes because of the distance.

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Re: Added juice to run an ice install

Post by TonyE » Thu May 21, 2009 8:04 pm

I run a set of MB Quarts ( 6.5 inch ) in front from a rockford amp and a 1080W RMS digital amp on a 15W3 JL sub in a sealed box . A ported box bass is normally uncontrolable and the box is huge. My headunit is a Pioneer in dash DVD and i have a pre amp to boost the RCA output of the radio and al of this gives me a helthy 146.9 DB. My baterry is a delco deepcycle 109 amphour on a 65A alternator. You would be able to get around 135 DB with a system under R9000 .

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Re: Added juice to run an ice install

Post by bugspray » Thu May 21, 2009 8:32 pm

:hangloose: thats a respectable number you got there. Schweet equipment also. Thats an uber sub is the amp powering it enough? im not gonna be chasing db's tho. Just want a good sounding visually pleasing ride. Yeah a deepcycle battery is also an option. I like the optima range. Where did you score the bigger alt.from? how much was it?
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Re: Added juice to run an ice install

Post by jmvv » Fri May 22, 2009 5:17 pm

You guys are correct to state that a sealed enclosure gives a nice flat frequency response, which gives you a natural musical response and sounds great under ideal conditions (car stationary, engine off, no ambient noise)

However

In a car install, the idea is to enjoy the music also whilst driving - and in our beloved Beetles that means a substantial interference from the road, engine and wind (the window is open - no A/C remember).

The problem is that this noise interferes in the region of 60Hz to 80Hz and creates cancellation frequencies that cancels the bass. This is about the frequencies where Hip Hop, House, Dance and other modern genres produce the rythm line (bass)

The result is that your system sounds great while showing off to your buddies, but the moment you start driving the bass starts to disappear. To compensate for this, you then start by switching on the loudness, turning up the bass boost, all to try and get the bass back.

The problem is that at resonant frequency of a sealed box, the subwoofer experiences the maximum cone movement, which can lead to mechanical breakage of the subwoofer.

With a properly designed vented enclosure, the boost in low fequency response means that you can still hear all the bass information whilst driving as well as having more than enough bass to impress during stationary demonstrations. Furthermore, at resonant frequency, the subwoofer experiences its minimum cone movement, wich aids in its longevity.

As an example:
Rockford Fosgate R1S412 subwoofer from the new Prime range.
Supplied maximum power is an actual 300 Watts RMS

In a sealed enclosure of 45 liter, the response curve shows a 2dB peak at 64.3 Hz. The 3 dB down point is at 36.8 Hz, but the displacement curve shows that damage can occur around 48 Hz.

In a vented enclosure of 45 liter, the response curve shows a 6,7 dB peak at 64,3 Hz. The 3 dB down point is at 42,3 Hz and the displacement shows that damage can occur around 35 dB, but because that is below the 3 dB down point (below this frequency you do not get an audible output) damage is unlikely.

In this example, it means that the vented enclosure produces two times louder bass at about the same frequency from the same sized box and the same amount of power.

This boost of frequency is smack bang where the car's interference messes with the bass output from the sound system.

My experience is that because of this boost, I can hear al the music and bass information whilst driving on smooth tar, coarse tar as well as dirt roads without the music becoming "Boomy". This holds true for Beetles, bakkies, SUV's, hatchbacks and sedans.

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Re: Added juice to run an ice install

Post by Tony Z » Sat May 23, 2009 1:16 am

3 letters.... JBL :drunks:

I cant argue with what you said, I dont know anything about what you just said

If I remember correctly, my 15" has a flat curve, dropping 3db at around 18Hz in a sealed enclosure of 38 litres.
Subsonis are amazing... car shakes, sub moves, cant hear a thing, except air moving past your ears. I love bass lines that have a sub 40Hz bassline. But I have heard many systems that cant produce it properly....

Dont use bass boost, dont use the loudness button, if its not loud enough, turn the amp up. :mrgreen: Thats the beauty of having reserve power.

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Re: Added juice to run an ice install

Post by bugspray » Sat May 23, 2009 8:08 am

:hangloose: schweet. I actually didnt think about outside interference and road noise. I am going to deaden and insulate as much as possible. Sound deadner is kak expensive tho.
I was looking at Soundstream audio and a pioneer deck. Buget dependant. My music choice ranges from StainD,Seether up to Avril lavigne, even Dire straits. I dont need boomy bass
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Re: Added juice to run an ice install

Post by jmvv » Sat May 23, 2009 11:46 am

For sound damping, try IMIX. Contact the distributor on 076 308 2696.

It performs the same as Dynamat at about half the price and it sticks when stuck. Some of the other stuff like HOS KILLER peels off when the car is parked in the sun.

Last word of advice, first plan your system completely in detail before you spend one cent. That will ensure that equipment is compatible and will allow for future upgrades.

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Re: Added juice to run an ice install

Post by Type1_2004 » Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:19 pm

jmvv you say do not use 6x9s and no one seems to be mentioning them. What is the problem with them when used with subs? I have holes already cut on my backboard for co-ax's and 6x9's (previous owner) so I went and bought a second-hand Calibra twister 12" with Starsound 4 ways for the install as well.

What's gonna happen when playing?

jmvv wrote:Yes the alternator is upgradable or you can get a high power unit (if I remember right, Calooker had one avaliable some time ago)

There are specialist rewinders that can rewind the alternator to deliver about 93 Ampere.

You do not need a second battery if you buy clever.

First decide what type of system you want General/SPL/Sound Quality

Invest in an efficient amplifier that will deliver high output without excessively high input current.
(Beware of some stupid claims from shiny Chines :bn:)
A good 2 channel amp can drive a front stage as well as a subwoofer in "tri-mode"

Get a real wiring kit - not the R199 rubbish sold at some "speed shops". You will get burned - literally.

Get a subwoofer that can deliver the goods (beware of the 2000watt 12 inch claims - do your homework sound output is measured in RMS Watts not PMPO or MAX)

If you are going to use a subwoofer, DO NOT USE 6x9's.

Install your subwoofer in a properly designed box specially made for that sub - stay away from the generic 12" ported type boxes. They suck and sound really :bn: :bn:

A properly designed ported box will give you anywhere from 2dB to 6dB boost at the tuned frequency (that is free output from the sub that you get for the same power input)

A well designed co-axial front stage can sound better than a rubbish split system.

A capacitor is not necessary, but if you are going to hammer the system, get one.

If you are going to show off your sound to your buddies, start the engine and let it idle. This will prevent the battery voltage dropping to critical levels on current regulated amps and will prevent the smoke running out.

A nice system for a Beetle:
Front loader / MP3 player with at least 2 pairs of RCA outputs
High power 6½" coaxial speakers for a front stage
12" subwoofer in a ported enclosure, tuned correctly
4 channel amplifier
1 Farad cap (optional)
Good quality wiring kit
Ballpark price for theabove, about R6K VAT and fitting included.
I am..... Rhino Horn Customs.

And Someone.... stole the voices in my head. I'm gonna find him...

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Tony Z
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Re: Added juice to run an ice install

Post by Tony Z » Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:33 pm

if you want cheap and simple sound that isnt too bad, get a small amp to drive your 6x9's - you;d be surprised how good they sound, even without a sub

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Re: Added juice to run an ice install

Post by Type1_2004 » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:49 pm

Still no Answer on the 6X9 "Effect" ?
I am..... Rhino Horn Customs.

And Someone.... stole the voices in my head. I'm gonna find him...

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