Dyno-charts

Post general ACVW topics here
Forum rules
If its not ACVW related, post it in Off Topic.
User avatar
Tony Z
Donor
Donor
Posts: 14996
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:33 am
What model do you have?: 2.3L 69; 1302; P/Van
Location: Klipheuwel (near Durbanville), Cape Town or working at sea
Has thanked: 192 times
Been thanked: 487 times
South Africa

Re: Dyno-charts

Post by Tony Z »

send it to me, I'll try post it this evening


User avatar
Ron&Gill
Full-time Bug Nutter
Posts: 4054
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:16 am
What model do you have?: Type 1, 21b, 34, 316
Location: St Lucia KZN/Cameron LA
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 21 times
Netherlands

Re: Dyno-charts

Post by Ron&Gill »

Hokay... give us a wave when you come sailing past...
1964 T34 - The Razor: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=10290
1956 T2 1b - Gill's bus: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=10948
1967 T316 - viewtopic.php?f=23&t=10931 & viewtopic.php?f=23&t=15977
2000 beach buggy - viewtopic.php?f=23&t=10915
User avatar
Ron&Gill
Full-time Bug Nutter
Posts: 4054
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:16 am
What model do you have?: Type 1, 21b, 34, 316
Location: St Lucia KZN/Cameron LA
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 21 times
Netherlands

Re: Dyno-charts

Post by Ron&Gill »

Dun... in you hotmail.
1964 T34 - The Razor: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=10290
1956 T2 1b - Gill's bus: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=10948
1967 T316 - viewtopic.php?f=23&t=10931 & viewtopic.php?f=23&t=15977
2000 beach buggy - viewtopic.php?f=23&t=10915
User avatar
Tony Z
Donor
Donor
Posts: 14996
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:33 am
What model do you have?: 2.3L 69; 1302; P/Van
Location: Klipheuwel (near Durbanville), Cape Town or working at sea
Has thanked: 192 times
Been thanked: 487 times
South Africa

Re: Dyno-charts

Post by Tony Z »

I'll be coming past Algeria on friday.... (almost, at a stretch).
User avatar
Ron&Gill
Full-time Bug Nutter
Posts: 4054
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:16 am
What model do you have?: Type 1, 21b, 34, 316
Location: St Lucia KZN/Cameron LA
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 21 times
Netherlands

Re: Dyno-charts

Post by Ron&Gill »

Cool, when you come skimming past Skikda, look for the big black plume coming out the flare stack... That wasn't me...
1964 T34 - The Razor: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=10290
1956 T2 1b - Gill's bus: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=10948
1967 T316 - viewtopic.php?f=23&t=10931 & viewtopic.php?f=23&t=15977
2000 beach buggy - viewtopic.php?f=23&t=10915
User avatar
louisvr45
Valve
Posts: 1085
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:24 pm
What model do you have?: VW SC fleetline 1600
Location: pta
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Dyno-charts

Post by louisvr45 »

Ron can I have a copy aswell?
User avatar
Ron&Gill
Full-time Bug Nutter
Posts: 4054
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:16 am
What model do you have?: Type 1, 21b, 34, 316
Location: St Lucia KZN/Cameron LA
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 21 times
Netherlands

Re: Dyno-charts

Post by Ron&Gill »

louisvr45 wrote:Ron can I have a copy aswell?
In your inbox... :D
1964 T34 - The Razor: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=10290
1956 T2 1b - Gill's bus: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=10948
1967 T316 - viewtopic.php?f=23&t=10931 & viewtopic.php?f=23&t=15977
2000 beach buggy - viewtopic.php?f=23&t=10915
User avatar
MarshallGTi
Camshaft
Posts: 883
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:16 pm
What model do you have?: GTi 16v
Location: Alberton, JHB
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: Dyno-charts

Post by MarshallGTi »

Modifications to the engine in Rumours.
I started with a stock 1600 twin port motor which was delivered to me with a standard Beamish supplied 4 into 1 stainless steel exhaust system. It had a single 32 mm Solex PICT carburettor with an adaptor to fit the 34mm inlet manifold, also standard supply by Beamish. The spark plug holes had helicoils installed. This is apparently also standard with Beamish.

The pro’s started off with much the same, except they had a standard twin port 1600 with a 34mm Solex PICT-3 carb, dual vacuum advance SVDA distributor and a standard exhaust which was shown to make 50.88hp at 4000rpm:

RPM 2500 3000 3500 4000 4500 5000 5500 6000 6500
hp 37.10 41.97 48.23 50.88 49.60 41.34 30.31 - -

My first modification.

The first mod done on the engine was the installation of a 34mm Weber ICH carburettor. This carb was very popular on the 1600 Ford Escorts so I felt that the engine would breath adequately through it. We fitted a #125 main jet. There was some improvement going from a 32mm carb to a 34mm carb.

I also installed a Mag-Fire high voltage coil (44kV instead of the normal 22kV) and Ignitor electronic ignition. While the electronic ignition precludes any future points adjustments, I cannot claim any appreciable difference in performance. The engine ran very well though.

What did the pro’s do? Well, they removed the centre section of the inlet manifold and fitted one of CB Performance’s larger ID manifolds, retaining the stock factory castings at the end. They rejetted the 34mm Solex PICT-3 carb with a #125 main jet. Here’s what they tested at: (The first row of power results are always the previous test results for ease of comparison)

RPM 2500 3000 3500 4000 4500 5000 5500 6000 6500
hp 37.10 41.97 48.23 50.88 49.60 41.34 30.31 - -
hp 36.82 42.96 50.12 54.01 53.40 45.01 - - -

Notice the lower power at 2500rpm (0.75%), while the power at 4000, 4500 and 5000rpm is on average 7.5% higher. Notice also that the difference in power is more as the revs go up.

My second modification.

The second mod I did was the installation of the popular Bosch 009 distributor. This distributor does not have a vacuum advance and therefore it is a suitable choice for an engine without a vacuum signal. I did not understand this at the time, but did the modification as it was often recommended as a performance enhancer. Some difference was felt, but the engine had to be pushed hard to make it noticeable.

What did the pro’s do? They went to dual carb first and then fitted the 009 distributor. I’ve listed those two test results after my third modification.
Last edited by MarshallGTi on Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ryan Marshall

An ingenius solution to a problem that should have never existed in the 1st place

My Bug http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopi ... 37&t=25752" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
3250
User avatar
MarshallGTi
Camshaft
Posts: 883
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:16 pm
What model do you have?: GTi 16v
Location: Alberton, JHB
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: Dyno-charts

Post by MarshallGTi »

My third modification.

At this point I decided that I wanted dual carbs. Due to the fact that I was happy with the one single barrel 34mm ICH Weber carb I already had, I simply decided to add a second. What became immediately apparent was that there was no linkage system on the market which would pull these two “single” carbs open in the right direction. To solve this problem I was pointed in the direction of Dave Rowley who custom made a linkage in short order. After Jesse Huggett dyno-tuned the engine and rejetted the carbs, the engine was making 44.1 kW (58.8hp) @ 4200rpm. (The pro’s got 58.92 @ 4500rpm) So I had an improvement of 15.5%.

At this point the 009 distributor became the appropriate choice since with the dual carb set up, I no longer had a vacuum signal.
Image

Picture: A messy engine with dual 34mm Weber ICH carbs and custom made linkage. The best looking parts are the linkage and the Badger pulley cover.

What did the pro’s do? They fitted a set of single barrel 40mm Kadron Solexes tested the engine and fitted the 009 distributor at a total advance of 32o. Here are their results: (Again the first row is the previous test results, the second row is with the dual carbs and the third is with the 009 dizzie).

RPM 2500 3000 3500 4000 4500 5000 5500 6000 6500
hp 36.82 42.96 50.12 54.01 53.40 45.01 - - -
hp 33.75 41.73 50.12 57.28 55.24 51.15 - - -
hp 35.80 42.96 52.99 57.28 58.92 55.24 48.38 - -

Again, low down power is down, by 3hp, but notice how the 009 distributor picks that up again. The 009 distributor shifts the peak power from 4000rpm to 4500rpm. At 5000rpm, the power increase with dual carbs is 13.6% and with the 009 dizzie it is a further 8%.

My fourth modification.

It was with this combination that I towed our trailer with a little too much vigour on a hot day and, as it later transpired, severely cracked the number 3 and 4 cylinder head. I initially suspected that the carbs were off so I had another tuning session with Jesse at Windsor Motors and the best result was a disappointing 39.1kW (52.1hp). This, in conjunction with constant problems with the helicoils coming out of the spark plug threads, prompted me to approach Dave Rowley for new cylinder heads. He suggested 041 heads which we installed after I had done the 1600km Route 62 trip from which I returned with a bug that would not run at all between 800rpm and 3500rpm.

Image
Image
Picture: 5 cracks in the left hand head, 3 in the No 3 pot, and 2 in No 4.

The pulling off of the old heads also allowed me to fit the spring loaded aluminium push rod tubes to eliminate the unsightly oil seepage from the stock items. The 041 heads are high flow heads with 40mm inlet and 35.5mm exhaust valves. Once these heads were installed, the performance was back up to 46kW (61.3hp). I have been reliable told that a good head job will add 25% power to a standard engine and I now had 20.5% increase over standard.

What did the pro’s do? They fitted a set of Scat forged 1.4:1 ratio rockers. They simply open the valves further, not longer, the valve timing stays the same. It therefore equates to larger valves rather than a high performance camshaft. Here are their results:

RPM 2500 3000 3500 4000 4500 5000 5500 6000 6500
hp 35.80 42.96 52.99 57.28 58.92 55.24 48.38 - -
hp 35.38 43.67 52.36 58.23 61.87 60.66 51.15 - -

Again there is a small decrease in low down power but at peak, the power increase is 5% and at 5000rpm the increase is 9.8%, indicating that the power curve is still tending towards the higher revs.
Last edited by MarshallGTi on Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ryan Marshall

An ingenius solution to a problem that should have never existed in the 1st place

My Bug http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopi ... 37&t=25752" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
3250
User avatar
MarshallGTi
Camshaft
Posts: 883
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:16 pm
What model do you have?: GTi 16v
Location: Alberton, JHB
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: Dyno-charts

Post by MarshallGTi »

My fifth modification.

It was felt that the carbs were now a limiting factor as well as the valve opening. At this point the ideal modification would have been to fit an Engle 110 camshaft, but being unwilling to split the case, I decided on 1.25:1 ratio rockers to open the valves a bit further and liven the engine up. As far as carbs were concerned, two twin choke 36mm IDF Webers were the answer. The engine really came to life after this mod. The timing was set up as follows: rev the engine up to see where the 009 stops advancing. At this engine speed set between 28 and 32 degrees advanced firing. My 009 stops advancing at 2200rpm and I set 31-32 degrees advance.
Image

Picture: Having the engine out gave me the opportunity to fit my custom sprayed engine tin and parts of the EMPI engine dress up kit. These included: Chrome oil filler neck, chrome alternator pulley, chrome alternator backing plate, transparent distributor cap, high tension leads and fasteners, chrome coil holder and a chrome sump plate with magnetic sump plug, also chromed. Very bling! Note the crank case breather arrangement exiting the fuel pump blanking plate.

What did the pro’s do? They replaced the 1.4:1 ratio rockers, fitting the stock 1.1:1 ratio rockers, going instead for an Engle 110 cam. I don’t have their full test results other than peak power:

RPM 2500 3000 3500 4000 4500 5000 5500 6000 6500
hp 35.80 42.96 52.99 57.28 58.92 55.24 48.38 - -
hp - - - - - 65.84 - - -

That’s 19.2% increase in peak power. They also fitted a set 40mm double barrel Dellorto carbs.

Incidentally, since I felt I would rather crash than burn, I also removed the mechanical fuel pump which, for pyromaniacs, is so conveniently placed next to the sparking distributor. I installed a Facet 1.4 to 5 psig electric fuel pump under the fuel tank and routed all the fuel lines well away from the distributor, to the front of the cooling fan shroud. And I bought a fire extinguisher. The hole left by the removal of the mechanical pump has been closed using a blanking plate which is drilled through and has a hose fitting installed and is now used as a crank case breather through a breather box. The oil which collects in the breather box flows back into both cylinder head rocker covers.

My ‘last’ mods.

The other thing that had to go was the exhaust. Not that there was anything wrong with it, except that it pinched in severely in the bends, thus, choking the exhaust flow quite effectively. It was also far too small a diameter, enough reason for me to send it to the second hand market. I obtained a 1¾” exhaust and installed it with remarkable results.

Next was the replacement of the subassembly, which was getting a little long in the tooth. I was starting to experience blow by, as could be seen in the oil return lines from the breather box. What is installed now is a 1914cc motor, with a 69mm counterweighted crank shaft, 94mm pistons and an Engle 110 cam with straight cut gears, high rev valve springs, solid rocker shaft, retaining the 1.25:1 ratio rockers and a lightened, 8 doweled, flywheel. Of course the crank case and heads had to be fly cut to accept the 94mm pistons.

For extra cooling, the oil system was modified to a high volume oil pump with a full flow oil pump cover and a 72 pass external oil cooler. An external oil filter was also fitted. The aluminium spring loaded push rod tubes produced a rub on the push rods so these were exchanged for nylon spring loaded tubes of a slightly larger diameter.

The carbs were once again rejetted, not only because of the larger motor, but also to cure an insatiable thirst which was just outrageously expensive. Some teething problems were experienced with the left hand carb, where a piece of dirt caused a blocked jet intermittently which in turn caused the engine to run on only three cylinders. That having been solved, the engine is very quick, yet very driveable. There is no “009 flat spot” and the engine has plenty of low down torque and high rev power. The “009 flat spot” was eliminated by adjusting the accelerator pump strokes to maximum. More about that later…

Their final goal? They don’t have limits like “driveable engines”. They just went on and on. They fitted 90.5mm pistons giving 1776cc and a peak power of 72.79hp @ 4500rpm. Low down power increased by 6hp. Then they played with the exhaust some more and then changed to CB performance’s Eliminator 2000 heads. By now they were making 87.85hp @5500rpm. Then they changed the 40mm Dellortos out for two 44IDF Webers with 36mm chokes gaining only 2.5hp at 5500rpm, and no increase low down. The 40mm Dellortos supplied all the breathing the 1776cc engine needed. They went to 1914cc, peaking at 118.44hp @ 6000rpm and then to 2165cc peaking at 132.26hp @ 5500rpm. Porting the heads and increasing the valve sizes to 40mmx36mm and 42mmx37mm added another 17hp @ 6000rpm.

Their goal was 200hp which they exceeded at 2332cc, with an Engle FK10 cam and the 1.4:1 ratio rockers and 48IDA Webers with 42mm chokes, reaching 203.72hp @ 6500rpm. It should be noted that what they referred to as low down power now occurred at 4000rpm and it was 117hp!
Ryan Marshall

An ingenius solution to a problem that should have never existed in the 1st place

My Bug http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopi ... 37&t=25752" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
3250
User avatar
MarshallGTi
Camshaft
Posts: 883
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:16 pm
What model do you have?: GTi 16v
Location: Alberton, JHB
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: Dyno-charts

Post by MarshallGTi »

Other mods.

Disc brakes and lighter rims and tyres were fitted. This served two purposes, one to ensure straight line braking and ease of maintenance, and secondly to improve the sprung/unsprung weight ratio. Also, in order to keep this all going in the intended direction and not all over the place randomly, I fitted a camber compensator, for which the Beamish supplied engine cage had to be modified.

Engine trouble!

A year ago, I started experiencing engine hesitation and back firing. The problem slowly worsened from once per 2000km to continuous during the year until the buggy was undriveable. I suspected a faulty spark plug, dirty carbs, again, sticking exhaust valve or cam follower, until I pointed out to a friend that I could not determine what it was as it only occurred when driving. So he suggested another trip to Jesse Huggett and his dyno. What a great idea, I realised! So off I went. I left the buggy there and it was not long before Jesse phoned telling me there was something wrong with the distributor or Ignitor ignition system. I bought a whole new 009 distibutor with Ignitor kit already installed and took it to him and all my problems were solved. No more stumbling, hesitation, back firing and the dyno result was as follows: 58kW (77hp) at 4000rpm and 189Nm at 2500rpm. I felt that the “009 flat spot” had also been caused by the steadily deteriorating Ignitor kit so I adjusted the accelerator pump strokes back to 65%. This should sort out the thirsty engine. The jury is still out on this.

Point to note then: the electronic ignition kit is sold as an “install-and-forget” piece of kit to eliminate the need for ever setting contactor points gap again. However, do not forget it as a possible culprit for a badly running engine. The brand new EMPI electronic ignition kit on the Karmann Ghia lasted all of 35km (about 1 hour!!) before it packed up and the one on the buggy lasted eight years, but pack up it did.

Update and summary April 2012.

It did sort out the thirsty engine. The flat spot was due to a degrading ignition. There is no such thing as a “009 flat-spot”. Only a badly adjusted 009. I have changed to a Huco fuel pump. I modified the exhaust to have two silencers, because of tinnitus, hell’s bells, that engine gets overbearing after a couple of hundred k’s.

Eliminating the fictional 009 flat spot by increasing the accelerator pump stoke is a mistake. It is eliminated by setting the 009 up correctly.

What I am doing here is sharing my learning with you as I stumbled along. These are my experiences, not my theories. They can be discussed, but not denied. Some of my assumptions may be flawed, and flame away if they are. But you cannot tell me that a 009 always causes a flat spot, because mine doesn’t.

This article was written about 5 years ago except the last paragraph which was written 3 years ago or so. My engines run on unleaded, exclusively, always. No additives.
Ryan Marshall

An ingenius solution to a problem that should have never existed in the 1st place

My Bug http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopi ... 37&t=25752" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
3250
User avatar
Wentzel
Donor
Donor
Posts: 983
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:10 pm
What model do you have?: T1 1977,76
Location: Witbank
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: Dyno-charts

Post by Wentzel »

Very nice information.

Had my car on the dyno today at the event at Highveld mall. It is a new high for me at 143kw (191hp) and 268n as I mentioned in the events post this is with correction factor but I'm quite happy for now :lol:
Oxyboxer Project

Never Ending Beetle Project viewtopic.php?f=23&t=35724
Lolette Spyder Project http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopi ... 23&t=32175
User avatar
Tony Z
Donor
Donor
Posts: 14996
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:33 am
What model do you have?: 2.3L 69; 1302; P/Van
Location: Klipheuwel (near Durbanville), Cape Town or working at sea
Has thanked: 192 times
Been thanked: 487 times
South Africa

Re: Dyno-charts

Post by Tony Z »

thats impressive!
User avatar
Wentzel
Donor
Donor
Posts: 983
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:10 pm
What model do you have?: T1 1977,76
Location: Witbank
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: Dyno-charts

Post by Wentzel »

Thanks Tony as you know it takes a lot of work and some set backs to get there. I am waiting for the day that you go Turbo. I'm just wondering what will be next for me now, maybe gearbox will have to be done first before it starts dying on me.
Oxyboxer Project

Never Ending Beetle Project viewtopic.php?f=23&t=35724
Lolette Spyder Project http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopi ... 23&t=32175
User avatar
Tony Z
Donor
Donor
Posts: 14996
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:33 am
What model do you have?: 2.3L 69; 1302; P/Van
Location: Klipheuwel (near Durbanville), Cape Town or working at sea
Has thanked: 192 times
Been thanked: 487 times
South Africa

Re: Dyno-charts

Post by Tony Z »

I am waiting for that day too... 1 step at a time ;-)
Another way to save the gearbox is to run a clutch that slips a tad too much. Ok, you cant nail it from the line, but it will lat things live longer
Post Reply