Aircooled VW South Africa

The T4, Porsche and newer FI motors all have different more modern ways to deal with the crankcase vent problem. And the draft tube is not for condensation. Do a little research and you will learn.

Hey Jim, you obviously have vast knowledge, and it's great to share views with someone like yourself but as always not everyone sees things the same way, so I will just agree to disagree on some things.
All the later cases actually have a slot in the case under the main seal "chamber" and do still have the 7 o’clock opening but now no longer retain oil as you describe, it drains back into the case immediately, something similar to the pulley end as you describe, VW did this for a reason, wonder why? The main seal gets so much lube from oil coming from the crank, at this time no longer pressurized, that there is no need for oil build up, this way the tend to leak less too.
BTW there is plenty of oil vapor and oil itself flying around the case to lube a seal regardless of where it is, including one on a pulley, main seals fail too even in an engine with little mileage, quality has more to do with failure above anything else. Seals don’t' need to be submerged in oil to do the intended job.

*takes a seat and grabs the popcorn*

Dibs on the lazyboy!

Hi,

I had a problem like that some time ago and it turned out that the case surface around the pulley was damaged and had a 'ridge'. It was a small line caused maybe by someone opening the case by wedging a tool between the crank and case when rebuilding. This caused the oil to pass the pulley via the line made in the casing.

Check the surface around the pulley for damage or any marks, it should be a smooth flat surface.

I have at least 2 manuals that refer to the downpipe off the filler as a condensate tube, maybe my research or memory is failing me. Btw what is so modern about T4 or WBX crankase ventilation? They have more CC and will generate more crankcase pressure.

calooker wrote:Hey Jim, you obviously have vast knowledge, and it's great to share views with someone like yourself but as always not everyone sees things the same way, so I will just agree to disagree on some things.
All the later cases actually have a slot in the case under the main seal "chamber" and do still have the 7 o’clock opening but now no longer retain oil as you describe, it drains back into the case immediately, something similar to the pulley end as you describe, VW did this for a reason, wonder why? The main seal gets so much lube from oil coming from the crank, at this time no longer pressurized, that there is no need for oil build up, this way the tend to leak less too.
BTW there is plenty of oil vapor and oil itself flying around the case to lube a seal regardless of where it is, including one on a pulley, main seals fail too even in an engine with little mileage, quality has more to do with failure above anything else. Seals don’t' need to be submerged in oil to do the intended job.

You can disagree with me or yell at me or what ever you wish. dont worry, I can take it! If im wrong I will be humble and recant my opinion.
I learn new things all the time and sometimes things that I thought were correct are not. Live and learn. I am very happy to discuss with anyone.

Sure! I completly agree with you about the seals.. But you need to look at the time when the type-1 motor was designed. The seals were made of entirely different materials untill the late 1970's

When you say later model case, what are you refering to? I looked at every case I have and there is no slot below the flywheel seal. Send photos please. The main purpose of the oil resevoir near the seal is not to keep the seal lubricated while the motor is running but to keep it lubricated while the motor is stopped for any length of time. Imagine you are a typical german in the 1940-50's. You wake up in the morning in the winter and trudge thru a meter of snow and get into your trusty VW and drive 3 k to work. the motor hardly gets warm. When you burn gasoline and air you get water vapor and carbon dioxide with some other nasty compounds thrown in. As I explained before, there is blowby in the motor. sometimes little sometimes lots. as the engine cools the water vapor condenses on the inside of the motor. and some even drips into the oil. Anything that is steel and not covered with oil will begin to rust such as the exposed crank journals. The longer it sits, the more rust that developes. If you look at many other motors, the crank sits in the oil bath of the crankcase. the VW motor does not. it sits way above the oil bath. When you start the motor in cold weather, very little oil makes it to the journals for a few minutes most gets recirculated back to the crankcase thru the relief valves. durning this period is when most of the wear occures. That is why there is a oil resevoir for the Flywheel seal.

About the missing pulley seal. I have a technical assement that was submitted to the US EPA in 1968 from VW of America Describing the crankcase ventilation system and demonstrating why they were not required to provide a sealed crankcase as was required by the upcoming EPA legislation. It is in Ethiopia and I will send it to you when I get back there after christmas.

It is very interesting.
Jim

calooker wrote:I have at least 2 manuals that refer to the downpipe off the filler as a condensate tube, maybe my research or memory is failing me. Btw what is so modern about T4 or WBX crankase ventilation? They have more CC and will generate more crankcase pressure.

They were design to meet US EPA regulations and technology had changed quite a bit since the 1940's. What books do you have that refer to the pipe as a condensate tube? Im curious. Most books refer to it as a draft pipe or road pipe. If your books are English books, there is always different wording used..... Perhaps we are talking about a different tube too?

I hate to jump into this converstion, you guys are doing so well already...

I do have 3 comments to make regarding your post however, Rift.

Riftvalleyvw wrote:
When you say later model case, what are you refering to? I looked at every case I have and there is no slot below the flywheel seal.
Jim

I remember seeing this slot / oil drain hole in my CB / Autolinea case. No I dont have pics.

Riftvalleyvw wrote: When you burn gasoline and air you get water vapor and carbon dioxide with some other nasty compounds thrown in. As I explained before, there is blowby in the motor. sometimes little sometimes lots. as the engine cools the water vapor condenses on the inside of the motor. and some even drips into the oil.
Jim

The way you worded that, it sounds like you are saying that the combustion process is what causes the condensation (I am fishing for words in that sentance too)

What actually happens is that the engine warms up during running. After you turn it off, as the engine cools moisture from the air (inside and outside your crankcase) condenses on cold metal to form water. Warm air holds more water than cold air. Thats why a de-humidifier passes thru a cooler then a heater.
This happens especially on aircompressors that are overcooled or water cooled engines that are overcooled.
Driving you car until its fully warm helps to remove ths condensation from your oil.
Small quantities of water in your oil doesnt harm the oil, but it can react with components in the oil from the blow-by such as carbon or sulphur, which isnt good. The oil has additives to prevent this and aid the water being seperated and flashing off to vapour so it can be expelled thru the breather.

Riftvalleyvw wrote: If you look at many other motors, the crank sits in the oil bath of the crankcase. the VW motor does not. it sits way above the oil bath.
Jim

I somehow doubt it. I have never seen an engine that sits with its crank in the oil. The stresses induced from a crank hitting the oil reserve can not only break the crank, but also overheat the oil and cause huge parasitic losses.
Cranks like the american V8s have are often knife edged. This sharp edge on the counterweight reduces stresses from them hitting the oil as the oil level is close to the crank and during hard cornering or quick changes in direction, the oil can slosh into the crank. But to my knowledge, no engine has its crank sitting below the oil level.
Besides, if your seal doesnt work 100% when the engine isnt turning, what then?? Oil all over the clutch?

Very true we learn something new every day
On TonyZ's pic http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee23 ... uild/9.jpg
You can see the slot under the main seal, I know this is a aftermarket case but the VW factory one from about 1975 has the slot as well. The manuals I have are in English and refer to the tube as a condensation relief in one and the other as just a condensate tube. I will try and scan the pages.

Yes, I can see the groove. There is also a drain groove on the cam as I can see. It must be something that Clive asked for and the other aftermarket people asked for.
I buy the Autolinia VW Aluminum replacement cases VW spec. # 040.101.025 Autolinia Part number 16.01600 By the container. (By the way, the last time I bought them they were 195 USD each. I am sure they have gone up due to the increase in Aluminum prices.)These are the unmodified stock cases, No Shuffel pins or clearanced. Just stock universal replacement cases. They have all the holes and mounts for type one and type 3 motors and a fuel pump mount so they can be used for any motor. Strangely enoiugh there is a fitting on the top of the case right next to the number one cylinder and I have no Idea what it is for. It opens up straight to the crank case. I assumed it was for the FI crank case ventilation system for the mexican beetles. There is no drain groove on these cases. I will send photos as soon as I return to Ethiopia. I might have a case here, I will look.
I checked the Old cases I have and one is a AS, one is a AJ from a 1978 convertable I had and one is a AM case not really sure where that came from., None have the Groove at the flywheel seal. Lets keep looking and see what we can find.

Tony Z wrote:I hate to jump into this converstion, you guys are doing so well already...

I do have 3 comments to make regarding your post however, Rift.

Riftvalleyvw wrote:
When you say later model case, what are you refering to? I looked at every case I have and there is no slot below the flywheel seal.
Jim

I remember seeing this slot / oil drain hole in my CB / Autolinea case. No I dont have pics.

Riftvalleyvw wrote: When you burn gasoline and air you get water vapor and carbon dioxide with some other nasty compounds thrown in. As I explained before, there is blowby in the motor. sometimes little sometimes lots. as the engine cools the water vapor condenses on the inside of the motor. and some even drips into the oil.
Jim

The way you worded that, it sounds like you are saying that the combustion process is what causes the condensation (I am fishing for words in that sentance too)

What actually happens is that the engine warms up during running. After you turn it off, as the engine cools moisture from the air (inside and outside your crankcase) condenses on cold metal to form water. Warm air holds more water than cold air. Thats why a de-humidifier passes thru a cooler then a heater.
This happens especially on aircompressors that are overcooled or water cooled engines that are overcooled.
Driving you car until its fully warm helps to remove ths condensation from your oil.
Small quantities of water in your oil doesnt harm the oil, but it can react with components in the oil from the blow-by such as carbon or sulphur, which isnt good. The oil has additives to prevent this and aid the water being seperated and flashing off to vapour so it can be expelled thru the breather.

Riftvalleyvw wrote: If you look at many other motors, the crank sits in the oil bath of the crankcase. the VW motor does not. it sits way above the oil bath.
Jim

I somehow doubt it. I have never seen an engine that sits with its crank in the oil. The stresses induced from a crank hitting the oil reserve can not only break the crank, but also overheat the oil and cause huge parasitic losses.
Cranks like the american V8s have are often knife edged. This sharp edge on the counterweight reduces stresses from them hitting the oil as the oil level is close to the crank and during hard cornering or quick changes in direction, the oil can slosh into the crank. But to my knowledge, no engine has its crank sitting below the oil level.
Besides, if your seal doesnt work 100% when the engine isnt turning, what then?? Oil all over the clutch?

Tony, you are mostly correct about what happens with the Blowby gasses. But what I was trying to explain is that when you design a motor, You have to take into concideration that the driver wont let it warm up properly. If the oil doesnt reach 100C (212F) the water that condenced in the motor to begin with wont evaporate. You will just add more water to the oil with each short drive.

There is no sulpher in gasoline. Diesel fuel yes but gasoline no.

About the crank. The crank is not under the oil, but it is touching the oil. This is the reason why there are so many dry sump applications for American cars. It is probably more common that you think too. Most air compressors and refrigerant compressors use only splash oiling as it is called for lubrication. I have a 350 Chevy on a stand right now. When the rain stops I will take a photo and send it to you. If you are right I will send you something for your motor!

Dry sump systems primarily serve the purpose of having a much higher volume of oil than if you had a sump. The amount of oil you have is limited by the size of the tank you choose to install. Not to mention the fact that a properly designed sump will prob eliminate any chances of oil starvation due to the pump suction running dry.

The sump is also sucked clean which eliminates the change of oil hitting your crank as well as removing the oil spray from the case, also reducing the friction induced by the oil hitting the crank.

Plus if the case seals well enough, you can pull a slight vacuum in the case which helps the rings seal better and reduces blowby slightly.

It is a win win situation

WOW i am learning alot here, please do not stop

Hmmmm----- the return scroll thread on the pulley is for pumping air into the motor?. I suppose the thrower (slinger) washer on the crank is to mix the air up before it enters the case?
LOOK there is a cavity behind the crank pulley end bearing that has an oil thrower washer spinning around in it and it has a giant drain channel (on one side of the case) to drain the oil back to the sump

HELLO?

LOOK at the pictures!