Aircooled VW South Africa

Hi guys.

For a year now I have had my eye on a Beetle standing parked at my brother's town house complex. We assume the owners of the car is the "fly by night" type, because one day they were there... the next they were gone, but the car is still there. Seems to be in a restorable condition.

Now the problem is that I know NOTHING of the car, so it might have a terrible history. My plan is to try and get this car to be mine, but I'm not sure how to approach the situation. Does anyone have tips for me? Is there a way to see if this car is still legally owned / registered on someone's name? If it is, but the owner "disappeared", what can one do without stealing? I don't just want to go and load it onto a flatbed, just to find out that I am committing a crime, because that is NOT what I want to do.

In our Roman Dutch common law there is the concept of res nullius, which is a thing owned by nobody. Abandoned property falls under the definition of res nullius. In Roman Dutch law, res nullius belongs to anyone who takes it as his own.

First you need to find the registered owner and follow up on them. If they sold it you need to make an effort to find the person they sold it to, including placing an ad in the papers, etc. If, after reasonable effort, the former owner cannot be found, you will likely have complied with the requirements of proving the car is abandoned.

Your next problem will be registering it. If it's on Natis then the only way you can get a duplicate registration doc is if the registered owner gets a duplicate. If you can track down the registered owner and persuade them to do this, no problem. Otherwise you'd better hope the car is no longer on the system, or it's only good for parts.

BTW, the registered owner of a car is not necessarily the legal owner. Registration is evidence of ownership, but not proof. As far as our common law is concerned, registration is merely a matter of convenience for the authrorities and has nothing to do with legal ownership. And possession really is nine tenths of the law ...

Another thing to consider is that if the owner of that car did a fly by night and owed the landlord rent, then the landlord may automatically have a lien over any moveable property left behind by the tenant, under something known as the landlord's tacit hypothec, but you'll need a lawyer to explain that one to you.

An explanation of landlord's tacit hypothec from Deneys Reitz:

http://www.deneysreitz.co.za/images/new ... il0608.pdf

Sheesh, and here I thought fig is a bus expert. Jack of all trades?

Does it still have numberplates / license disk? If so, you can phone Tshwane Metro Police and they will be able to tell you if it was reported stolen etc. Also you can phone the license dept (get ready for a loooong wait) and ask them what the status of said vehicle. I was interested last year in a Kombi that was advertised, and called metro and also the license dept and they gave me the info readily, it turned out to be in arears with license since 2002 - so I walked away from that deal.

Cyberbeast wrote:Hi guys.

For a year now I have had my eye on a Beetle standing parked at my brother's town house complex. We assume the owners of the car is the "fly by night" type, because one day they were there... the next they were gone, but the car is still there. Seems to be in a restorable condition.

Now the problem is that I know NOTHING of the car, so it might have a terrible history. My plan is to try and get this car to be mine, but I'm not sure how to approach the situation. Does anyone have tips for me? Is there a way to see if this car is still legally owned / registered on someone's name? If it is, but the owner "disappeared", what can one do without stealing? I don't just want to go and load it onto a flatbed, just to find out that I am committing a crime, because that is NOT what I want to do.

You JHB okes are really scary!! Damn!

What if the guy is a VW fan just like you and me and is also a very busy guy, travelling a lot. who says he maybe does not wanna fix it up? Where is the morality in this; (My plan is to try and get this car to be mine, but I'm not sure how to approach the situation. Does anyone have tips for me? )

Why is advice even been given for this post? According to what I read, all you state is just assumptions and conjecture. Why not wait until you see him and then approach him regarding the sale of the bug... That would be the safe and logical thing to do IMHO. I would consider it stealing as you say in your subject line. Just imagine the bug was yours or one of ours.... nice huh?...NOT!

Muderick

Calm down Muds.

I advised him to contact the registered and legal owners before doing anything else.

The law is also as I stated it, whether you like that or not.

If the facts show the car is abandoned, anyone may claim it, although, as I also stated, the landlord may have the first claim.

You were very thorough Fig, its just so alarming that someone else can so easily (sic) lay claim to someone elses property if he or she so desires...

Muderick wrote:You were very thorough Fig, its just so alarming that someone else can so easily (sic) lay claim to someone elses property if he or she so desires...

The point is you CAN'T so easily lay claim to someone else's property. You can only claim it when it's NOT someone else's property, ie, after they have abandoned it.

Cars are abandoned all the time, but most are impounded by municipalities, who either auction them or crush them. I'd far rather enthusiasts grab abandoned old cars than they get crushed.

Cyberbeast, another thing to keep in mind is that the car is on private property, and it might be argued that either the landlord or the body corporate/homeowners' association is in possession of the car. You can't dispossess a possessor of property without their agreement or a court order. If you can't track down the owner, you should speak to the owner of the unit he was occupying (the landlord), or the body corporate, and offer to buy the car from them.

Possession is very strongly protected in our law (hence the statement that possession is nine tenths of the law). Someone who is in open possession of property has a legally enforcible right to remain in undisturbed possession of the property, even if they stole it or are otherwise not the lawful owner of the property. You may only legally dispossess someone of property in their open possession with a court order, even if they stole it from you. The police can seize stolen property, but a thief can go to court and demand the return of the property by showing only one thing: that they were in open possession of the property at the time it was seized. They don't have to prove ownership or that the possession was lawful. Obviously, in practice, should a thief try to brazen it out in that way, evidence would be led to show they stole the property or were otherwise not in lawful possession, which would then require them to justify why the property should be returned. But in theory a court can order its return to the thief and require the complainant to get a court order seizing the property.

I once found a SWB Land Rover with no engine, which had been left for a couple of years in the street in an industrial area in Boksburg. It showed all signs of being abandoned. I tracked down the registered owner, who told me he had sold it to a scrapyard. I then contacted the scrapyard, who told me they had sold it to someone who had not collected it and they had moved it into the street. I contacted this buyer and he was adamant that he still owned it and he wanted to restore it. A few weeks later it was gone.

As Muds says, an apparently abandoned vehicle may not be so. You need to do some work tracking down registered/legal owners and prove it's abandoned before you can legally claim it.

Here's another example from my experience:

The first split bus I ever acquired was a rusty, rolling shell 1957 double door panelvan, with Zim registration plates, which I found on a farm near Swartkops/Elandsdrif. I visited the house many times over a long period to enquire after the bus, but no one was ever home. Then, one day, I saw activity at the house and went in, to find the tenant was moving out and he had to move all the scrap cars and tractors he had in the yard.

I asked after the 57 and he told me that someone had left it there for storage years before and he'd never seen the guy again, and didn’t know how to contact him. He agreed to sell it to me to defray storage costs, and I bought it for R50.

I towed it back to my yard in North Riding and it sat there for another few years until, one day, a guy arrived in a hacked up baja buggy. He didn’t shut the gate behind him, and he was very aggressive, accusing me of having stolen his bus. If he had showed some respect, I would have been happy to give him the bus. But, under the circumstances, I told him he had abandoned the bus and I was now the lawful owner. He threatened to return with the police, and I invited him to do so, but warned him not to set foot on my property again. He never returned and I later sold the bus for R750.

All of this is fascinating. A really interesting read, thanks guys.

Woah... I'm not planning on stealing, Muderick. That is exactly what I do NOT want to do, as I stated in my first post

I don't just want to go and load it onto a flatbed, just to find out that I am committing a crime, because that is NOT what I want to do

. I think I said it wrong. What I meant in short: I DON'T want to steal.

I DO want to follow all the legal channels. Here is the thing... the car has been standing there, on the same spot for a year now. It has not been washed or touched in any way, and inside is clothing that does not get touched by anyone. Now I am purely interested in the car, either for restoring it, or for spares, BUT if I can't legally take over this vehicle, I'm leaving it there. I am NOT gonna steal it, so PLEASE don't think I'm a thief! I will do all my homework!

Thank you fig for all the info. It is the info I needed, since I have never attempted something like this before. Now I know where to start, who to call, what to do and what NOT to do.