Planning A Subaru Conversion...

Whatever you want to put in the back of your VW...
User avatar
Tony Z
Donor
Donor
Posts: 14991
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:33 am
What model do you have?: 2.3L 69; 1302; P/Van
Location: Klipheuwel (near Durbanville), Cape Town or working at sea
Has thanked: 191 times
Been thanked: 487 times
South Africa

Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...

Post by Tony Z »

Thee beetle box was made for approx 60hp, it can handle spirited driving up to about 100hp and the occasional thrash at about 140hp.
If you try dumping the clutch at 150hp or more (trust me you will when next to an M3 or Porsche or whatever), then you will destroy the gearbox. IF you put your foot flat on the floor when in third or 4th gear with that kind of power, you will eventually strip the gears or break the diff.
The gearbox wasnt made for that much power...


AKG1600
Oil Stain
Posts: 178
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:57 pm
What model do you have?: Karmann Ghia
Location: Harare, Zimbabwe
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...

Post by AKG1600 »

Tony Z wrote:Thee beetle box was made for approx 60hp, it can handle spirited driving up to about 100hp and the occasional thrash at about 140hp.
If you try dumping the clutch at 150hp or more (trust me you will when next to an M3 or Porsche or whatever), then you will destroy the gearbox. IF you put your foot flat on the floor when in third or 4th gear with that kind of power, you will eventually strip the gears or break the diff.
The gearbox wasnt made for that much power...
Got it. Thank you mi compadré.
The Karmann Ghia- Gravitas & Dignitas infused with SERIOUS Cool...
User avatar
retrovan
Donor
Donor
Posts: 8709
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:51 pm
What model do you have?: 52T1,68FB,72Bay,75FL
Location: Eich! no, in Jefferys Bay
Has thanked: 421 times
Been thanked: 539 times
Contact:
Netherlands

Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...

Post by retrovan »

If I was you, I would take note of what Tony is saying.

If you take the Type 4 engine, after 30 years most still run with STD main and big end bearings, now that reliable.

If you fit Hydraulic tappets, you never have to "constantly adjust Tappets"

Fit a good electronic ignition, you will ride for years, and you will not have the "Water" thing to deal with.

And the Box will take the power and the clutch can go to 228mm, and never give you :bn:

Then you need to get Tony to give you a Mod's list, and you will have the sprintiest KG in town.

Just the difference between the type 4 engine and the type 3 engine in my Fastback was day and night.
If I had my way, all my cars will have type 4 engines. :roll:


Sorry, just thinking aloud..... :oops:

But as always your car, your happiness, your fun, as long as its on the road, its cool with us.. :D

:wink:

Herman
1952 Split Beetle 1835cc
1968 Fastback 2Lt.type4
1972 Low Light Bay Panel Van 2Lt type 4
1975 Fleetline Panel Van 1914cc
2020 MeFusco Beetle Truck 2Lt type 4
1972 FT Hahn SP 1776 cc
AKG1600
Oil Stain
Posts: 178
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:57 pm
What model do you have?: Karmann Ghia
Location: Harare, Zimbabwe
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...

Post by AKG1600 »

Hi Herman. I appreciate your comments, as I do Tony's. Believe me, I've read enough on the forum to know your input comes from sound, practical experience. My issue is, unlike many of the good folks here, I'm not technical type of individual; and while I am looking forward to the experience of owning a classic Karmann bodied VW, the maintenance aspect interms of what I mentioned in my earlier post, is a concern.
It is interesting however, that you mention hydraulic lifters because initially when I bought the project, it was something I wanted done after having done some internet research, but the folks who sorted my motor at the time, thought I was talking gobbledy gook, and as a result of that I (wrongly) assumed it was not possible in South Africa. I even made mention of hydrauluc lifters in this thread:
http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopi ... =4&t=25343

Nonetheless, I did the following to my current motor:
The first thing I had done was have it taken in to have the existing mechanicals sorted. It has a dual port 1600 motor (I thought it was a single port, but was glad to find I was mistaken) which I intend to use while I search for an engine.
Because the car is going to be in daily use, I want an engine set up that can cope with this (daily driving)application. In the interim, below is the maintenance done to the engine and steering:
-Replaced steering box, 
-New speedo clock & cable, 
-Ignitor kit with Bosch coil and heavy duty plug leads, 
-External high volume oil pump, filter housing and filter, 
-New carburettor, 
-New exhaust system, 
-Engine service.

What else can I do to this motor to give me more reliability and zip. C'mon persuade me to stay a/c. :D
A concern that did arise that brought me to going down the Subaru route is the wisdom that if one modifies a motor to perform beyond it's standard measure, there is a greater likelihood it can go wrong; particularly when it comes to air cooled motors. Another reason why I considered a Subaru power plant, as they come standard with greater power.
The Karmann Ghia- Gravitas & Dignitas infused with SERIOUS Cool...
User avatar
retrovan
Donor
Donor
Posts: 8709
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:51 pm
What model do you have?: 52T1,68FB,72Bay,75FL
Location: Eich! no, in Jefferys Bay
Has thanked: 421 times
Been thanked: 539 times
Contact:
Netherlands

Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...

Post by retrovan »

Know where you coming from.

Let me put it this way.as I am by no any means an expert,

Was I in your shoes, I would do the following.

As the KG has its maximum value in a stock standard guise, you would want to return it to that state once you have had your fun with it, and want to move on to the next thing.

So I would leave the current motor as is, just drive with it and keep the car going till you have had an opportunity to get the type 4 the way you want it.

So, get a type 4 2lt motor, and collect the parts that you want to fit into it. I love the hunt for these parts, as that is half the fun.

Put them into a big box and ship it to Impi.. If anybody can pull it off, it will be Armand.

Let him build up the motor with an upright fan, with Alternator, with twin 34 Webers, with hydraulic lifters, with new oil pump, with balanced con-rods and pistons with new barrels, with a re-cut cam shaft, polish the heads, fit a nice S/Steel exhaust and then fit the 228 Clutch to it.

Once all that is done and it has been bench run in, then fit it to the KG, and store the old engine for future sale.

Now you have an engine that will rev, and run for ever with little maintenance, good power, fast from the lights, and a real joy to drive.

Best of all, you still have the trill of an aircooled, be it a power full reliable one. You will not get the feeling of having a Hack job, as its true to model and make. And you have not cut up an classic to do it.

Hacking a classic is like having tattoos, great idea at the time, but when the novelty wears off, dam painful to correct.

If you ever come to PE or maybe in George in Feb, you are welcome to drive my Fastback, then surely you will be hooked.

Hope this helps.....

Herman
Last edited by retrovan on Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
1952 Split Beetle 1835cc
1968 Fastback 2Lt.type4
1972 Low Light Bay Panel Van 2Lt type 4
1975 Fleetline Panel Van 1914cc
2020 MeFusco Beetle Truck 2Lt type 4
1972 FT Hahn SP 1776 cc
AKG1600
Oil Stain
Posts: 178
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:57 pm
What model do you have?: Karmann Ghia
Location: Harare, Zimbabwe
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...

Post by AKG1600 »

Thanks Herman. I will certainly take this on board. I had never considered the Type IV option.

Herman/Tony, what would such a setup cost all in?
The Karmann Ghia- Gravitas & Dignitas infused with SERIOUS Cool...
Dawie
Fuel Injection
Posts: 2108
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:25 pm
What model do you have?: Aircooled, various
Location: Kaapstadt
Has thanked: 42 times
Been thanked: 207 times
South Africa

Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...

Post by Dawie »

Like this:
Image
Staying Aircooled is so much nicer.
Do'nt assume anything- (While doing fault-finding).
AKG1600
Oil Stain
Posts: 178
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:57 pm
What model do you have?: Karmann Ghia
Location: Harare, Zimbabwe
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...

Post by AKG1600 »

Dawie wrote:Like this:
Image
This looks sweet Dawie! Tell me more about what you've got here Gov'nor?
The Karmann Ghia- Gravitas & Dignitas infused with SERIOUS Cool...
Dawie
Fuel Injection
Posts: 2108
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:25 pm
What model do you have?: Aircooled, various
Location: Kaapstadt
Has thanked: 42 times
Been thanked: 207 times
South Africa

Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...

Post by Dawie »

Picture was taken at the Cape Town aircooled event about 2 months ago. Do not know the owner. Engine is nicely sealed around the edges to prevent used hot air from recirculating back into the fan's intake.
Staying Aircooled is so much nicer.
Do'nt assume anything- (While doing fault-finding).
User avatar
Tony Z
Donor
Donor
Posts: 14991
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:33 am
What model do you have?: 2.3L 69; 1302; P/Van
Location: Klipheuwel (near Durbanville), Cape Town or working at sea
Has thanked: 191 times
Been thanked: 487 times
South Africa

Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...

Post by Tony Z »

That conversion does look good.
I am pretty sure it will involve cutting the engine bay slightly.

How much will a T4 with upright conversion cost? No idea, I have not done it.

As for stock reliability on a 1600 T1 with a little more power, that isnt too hard to achieve. A slight CR increase and some work in the right places... wont realise much more power but will open up the bottom end a bit. Same will apply to a T4 head.

BTW, AKG, when they rebuilt your engine, did they put new valves in your heads? Doesnt look like you asked them to open the engine.
Do you know how old the exhaust valves are?
AKG1600
Oil Stain
Posts: 178
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:57 pm
What model do you have?: Karmann Ghia
Location: Harare, Zimbabwe
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...

Post by AKG1600 »

Tony Z wrote:That conversion does look good.
I am pretty sure it will involve cutting the engine bay slightly.

How much will a T4 with upright conversion cost? No idea, I have not done it.

As for stock reliability on a 1600 T1 with a little more power, that isnt too hard to achieve. A slight CR increase and some work in the right places... wont realise much more power but will open up the bottom end a bit. Same will apply to a T4 head.

BTW, AKG, when they rebuilt your engine, did they put new valves in your heads? Doesnt look like you asked them to open the engine.
Do you know how old the exhaust valves are?
Hi Tony. You are on the proverbial 'money' with your observation. I did not ask them to open the engine. The reason being, when I asked the garage about doing the porting of heads, fitting of hydraulic lifters etc, they told me they don't do that sort of thing. As a result, I opted to let them do the work they could do.
At the time the priority was to get the coach work up to par and the aesthetics right. Now that I am close to completing the coach work and interior, I'm turning my attention back to the mechanicals and exploring my options.

I will engage Impi regarding a T4 upright conversion and hear him out.
The Karmann Ghia- Gravitas & Dignitas infused with SERIOUS Cool...
User avatar
Tony Z
Donor
Donor
Posts: 14991
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:33 am
What model do you have?: 2.3L 69; 1302; P/Van
Location: Klipheuwel (near Durbanville), Cape Town or working at sea
Has thanked: 191 times
Been thanked: 487 times
South Africa

Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...

Post by Tony Z »

the best advise I can give you is that if you dont know how old your exhaust valves are, then you need to change them for new.
They only last about 80 000 km before you really have to start wondering when they will break and destroy your engine.
Think about it, its a fair amount of labour but the valves are cheap.

I think the newer mexican engines had hydraulic lifters in the T1 1600 design, but to my knowledge, they used a different case design.
AKG1600
Oil Stain
Posts: 178
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:57 pm
What model do you have?: Karmann Ghia
Location: Harare, Zimbabwe
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...

Post by AKG1600 »

Tony Z wrote:the best advise I can give you is that if you dont know how old your exhaust valves are, then you need to change them for new.
They only last about 80 000 km before you really have to start wondering when they will break and destroy your engine.
Think about it, its a fair amount of labour but the valves are cheap.

I think the newer mexican engines had hydraulic lifters in the T1 1600 design, but to my knowledge, they used a different case design.
Thanks for the insight and tips. I will need to consider my options regarding the T1. This conversion idea will need a little more meditation and research. The ACVW forum and its' members, as always, is proving invaluable.
Thank you.
The Karmann Ghia- Gravitas & Dignitas infused with SERIOUS Cool...
flatfourfan
Full-time Bug Nutter
Posts: 4195
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 12:06 pm
What model do you have?: Speedster Replica
Location: Pretoria
Has thanked: 36 times
Been thanked: 50 times

Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...

Post by flatfourfan »

I saw that someone mentioned the 2.0 8v water cooled option. This is a seriously nice engine choice for the beetle based cars out there. I was also looking at the Subaru route on my speedster and the cost of a clutch kit for this motor is almost double as to what a complete 2.0 8v motor costs. Parts for Subaru's in South Africa is nuts, basic service items can quickly add to a few thousand rand and plus finding a good motor (N/A) is an uphill battle, because the ones that are out there have usually been sitting in storage for a LONG time.

Prepare for a bill of about R30 000 to do a 2.0 8 v conversion properly using stock fuel injection. This is a DIY price. I can see a shop adding 10-15k to that to do it.

I decided against staying air-cooled because of the price of parts, availibility of GOOD parts as well as peace of mind.
AKG1600
Oil Stain
Posts: 178
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:57 pm
What model do you have?: Karmann Ghia
Location: Harare, Zimbabwe
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Planning A Subaru Conversion...

Post by AKG1600 »

flatfourfan wrote:I saw that someone mentioned the 2.0 8v water cooled option. This is a seriously nice engine choice for the beetle based cars out there. I was also looking at the Subaru route on my speedster and the cost of a clutch kit for this motor is almost double as to what a complete 2.0 8v motor costs. Parts for Subaru's in South Africa is nuts, basic service items can quickly add to a few thousand rand and plus finding a good motor (N/A) is an uphill battle, because the ones that are out there have usually been sitting in storage for a LONG time.

Prepare for a bill of about R30 000 to do a 2.0 8 v conversion properly using stock fuel injection. This is a DIY price. I can see a shop adding 10-15k to that to do it.

I decided against staying air-cooled because of the price of parts, availibility of GOOD parts as well as peace of mind.
I have also been looking at it; the 2.1 wasserboxer (as I've come across quite a few of them) but the feedback I got (regarding their reliability) was that they aren't so great. I haven't done too much else in terms of research as I've been hemmed at work. Just how reliable a solution are these?
The Karmann Ghia- Gravitas & Dignitas infused with SERIOUS Cool...
Post Reply