Aircooled VW South Africa

Coming from here
http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopi ... =3&t=27606

I like mine Vanilla with a hint of something else... Something fruity.

Merlin wrote: Not an attack; just some info' to chew on.

Kind regards,

Nic

Thanks Nic,

I will certainly give that some thought. I didn't realize I was being crass and I am relatively ignorant of all things VW compared to many on the forum, go look for my intro, I am here to learn and enjoy the hobby with my fellows.

In an effort to more clearly express my thoughts I will repeat what I said in my previous post using more words, you can let me know if it is still equally offensive or if I am making progress:

SA exports are often found to be "restored" in dubious ways. Pop over to the Samba and dig for SA VW resto threads. I'm thinking body putty, fibreglass and shoddy rust removal etc. We have only recently had more easily available properly fabricated panels through Jacques to repair rotten panels and pillars on our old vws.

I stand by my argument:
The average South African is poorer and less skilled with far fewer resources available to him than the average Aussie or Brit. It follows that a restoration carried out here, by the average Joe, will not be as good as one done overseas. We also seem to have a smaller population of enthusiasts.

What else...
None here should take all this personally. I didn't say that SA VW/classic car enthusiasts have no skills. I do however think that there are not stacks of them. I think their resources are often limited, money, space and time. How many serious collectors are there? Guys like Fig? I have one '71 bus. I would like one, maybe two more ACVWs. I don't have space for another right now.

I really enjoy old VW's they're wonderful machines. If you had to say to me, "Andrew would you rather see this old Splitty fixed with putty and whatnot, then lowered and pimped with mags and a chevy V8 or would you like to see some old Ballie in another country bring it back to its former condition.", I would say, give it to the old Ballie. Restoration is relative. Fig seems to like his buses mechanically sound but otherwise complete with og paint, stickers and signage. I like my og paint and stickers but sacrifice that to kill rust. I like my ride height standard with chrome caps and steelies yet I can appreciate a lowered bus so long as the wheels are somehow period correct.

I would accept as "restored" a VW that is rust free, with whole panels and pan, unchopped and ready to be taken back to original spec with a coat of paint and engine/tranny swap.

Drusky wrote:.........
I would accept as "restored" a VW that is rust free, with whole panels and pan, unchopped and ready to be taken back to original spec with a coat of paint and engine/tranny swap.

I do believe that the difference of opinions here are more to do with the meaning of words, or our common use of certain terms, and I am generalising here, as there is always exceptions in all cases.

If it take programs like Chasing Classic Cars, Wheeler Dealers, Custom Classics, and a lot more, we here in South Africa have the wrong perception of "restored."

We feel that if we have put 1000 hours into a car, and welded, Fiber Glassed, Body Putty'd, Spray Caned the visible parts, then we have "Restored" it.

Yet, if we use the correct terms, as used by the rest of the world, then we find, we have only "Done Up The Car", "Made it usable", "refreshed it"

The term "Restored ed It" means that the whole car was dissembled, every Original screw was cleaned and re-plated or re-placed with the same make, type, marked screw as it was when it came out the factory, with matching engine numbers, gearbox numbers, and all these things that add to the term "RESTORED"

Removed every floured panel, removed every crossbar, dip the entire body in rust remover, and re-phosphate'd, primed and top coated every surface of the metal work...
well you get what I mean.

So then you get a car that was as good or even better then the original, and not something that is covered in rust converter, wax, rivets, body filler, and so on...

Now I am not saying every body does a job, but it is a point of what we cam afford, or how much we can do with the expertise around us.

Even I will "restore" my car so that it will last a next 50 years, do as much as possible to get the rust out, or at least dead, to the point of where I cam enjoy it, and leave it to my Kids. But I am in no illusion, that they will have to rework the car again, before passing it on to their kids, because it will be shot by that time.

I can say with confidence that the only guy here on the forum, that I know of, to get close to the true term of "Fully Restored" is PE's own Dolf Jonker

Now this is my opinion, and I know that many may feel offended, but this is not my intention, but only a fact of life.

Now also heading to the corner....

Herman

Personally, and I refer to the split body and Fig's bus in this regard, the double cab was advertised for R5000 and that is what it is worth, then the guy got wind of the "collectors price" and jumped the asking price up to R20 000. Why? These busses are not THAT scarce and so highly sought after, otherwise Fig's bus would have been grabbed the moment it was advertized.

I personally believe the owners are asking too much, for a standard bus in running condition, I cannot see how you can ask more than R30 000.

What would you pay for a M.G. or a '69 Mercedes Benz? I know, I'm trying to sell a 69 Mercedes W114 in good condition (licensed et all) and I struggle to get R10 000.

You cannot compare UK prices with SA and say, "I want the same" the market is not the same, unrestored UK busses are standing in a very damp climate and look the part.

I would happily pay R60 000 or even R80 000 for a bus that looks like a restored bus in the USA or the UK - dropped suspension, wheels, better motor etc, but to buy the std bus for R60 000 still having to do all the mods to make it look decent (to me) is not worth it.

And that's why you drive a beach buggy........

Come on guys, play nice

Honestly, why does it always have to end up about how much it is worth. WTF does it matter about how much your ACVW is worth. I would have imagined that this is a passion, a hobby, something you love and enjoy, but it seems its more about the image.....

Just because a "market" reflects "high" pricing doesn't mean that all acvw's in the country will trade for that.

It simply boils down to how badly you want the items for sale....

Sean, the price is what people are willing to pay locally (the market). When people are looking to make money out of their vw's, because they happen to own a few, they shouldn't complain when the local guys are unwilling to pay their prices. For them, exporting is the only way.

Sambabus, you are correct, the buggy is a toy. You might think a 40 year old design and technology is good for everyone, but I would like to drive a bit faster than 60

Airpower is correct........I do think. 40 year old designs and technology is good for everyone.

Drusky wrote: The average South African is poorer and less skilled with far fewer resources available to him than the average Aussie or Brit. It follows that a restoration carried out here, by the average Joe, will not be as good as one done overseas. We also seem to have a smaller population of enthusiasts.

I call BULLSH!T on this statement. Having been overseas and worked alongside average Joes and metalshaping gods alike, the ONLY thing separating us from them is our attitude. The problem is we carry a massive chip on our collective shoulder thinking that we are inferior before we have even started. To my mind this is a CAUSE of the problem, not a SYMPTOM (though it isn't a straightforward black and white argument). As long as we tolerate this stupid idea, we won't move forwards.

Poorer? Check out what people are doing in the Pacific rim, and Eastern Europe. And the people in the supposed 'well-off' countries may earn more but you might want to compare the relative cost of living.
Less skilled? We may have lost our appetite for the manual trades (technical subjects taught in school etc) but that is a worldwide issue and we are actually better off than some.
Resources? We actually have them better than many - not dream-world-order-anything-from-a-catalogue-fallacies, but still pretty average.
Smaller population? Have to wonder why that is a 'factor'. NZ has about 4million people and a thriving aftermarket car industry, if you compare the top 4 million (financially) in SA I don't think you have a valid argument.


There is a far more fundamental issue that underpins all of this. Part of it is a perception of value. And as long as (seemingly) most of us believe these things should in the low 5 figures, we're fcuked.
But FAR more importantly, as long as we tolerate crap, that is what we will have. Demand better, and you will (eventually) get it.

I can get work all day long, am turning away plenty of people who can pay. SO it is possible to make a go of it. Yet after about five false starts so far, I am still looking for someone with the minerals to come work for me (for about five years - yes it DOES take longer than 3 weeks to learn this sh1t!) and get themselves into a position where they will have a secure work future anywhere in the world, always.......

Barry wrote:

Drusky wrote: The average South African is poorer and less skilled with far fewer resources available to him than the average Aussie or Brit. It follows that a restoration carried out here, by the average Joe, will not be as good as one done overseas. We also seem to have a smaller population of enthusiasts.

I call BULLSH!T on this statement. Having been overseas and worked alongside average Joes and metalshaping gods alike, the ONLY thing separating us from them is our attitude. The problem is we carry a massive chip on our collective shoulder thinking that we are inferior before we have even started. To my mind this is a CAUSE of the problem, not a SYMPTOM (though it isn't a straightforward black and white argument). As long as we tolerate this stupid idea, we won't move forwards.

Poorer? Check out what people are doing in the Pacific rim, and Eastern Europe. And the people in the supposed 'well-off' countries may earn more but you might want to compare the relative cost of living.
Less skilled? We may have lost our appetite for the manual trades (technical subjects taught in school etc) but that is a worldwide issue and we are actually better off than some.
Resources? We actually have them better than many - not dream-world-order-anything-from-a-catalogue-fallacies, but still pretty average.
Smaller population? Have to wonder why that is a 'factor'. NZ has about 4million people and a thriving aftermarket car industry, if you compare the top 4 million (financially) in SA I don't think you have a valid argument.


There is a far more fundamental issue that underpins all of this. Part of it is a perception of value. And as long as (seemingly) most of us believe these things should in the low 5 figures, we're fcuked.
But FAR more importantly, as long as we tolerate crap, that is what we will have. Demand better, and you will (eventually) get it.

I can get work all day long, am turning away plenty of people who can pay. SO it is possible to make a go of it. Yet after about five false starts so far, I am still looking for someone with the minerals to come work for me (for about five years - yes it DOES take longer than 3 weeks to learn this sh1t!) and get themselves into a position where they will have a secure work future anywhere in the world, always.......

I concur with Barry. It's a mind set. Those who make a genuine go of it will come good. Barry is a case in point (if one speaks to the purity of the metal shaping craft). If one has the capacity to do a restoration, then do a restoration. If one is restricted to doing what one can afford, then do that. No harm, no foul IMO.

True, forty year old designs and engineering aren't for everyone; but for those for whom it is, there are ways of making them Y2K compliant. Judging from reputation, the likes of Jake Raby, Tony Z, Impi and Bugger come to mind. Provided sufficient time and resources are committed to the task, it is very possible.

As far as 'How I Like My ACVW', clean with customisations. If it's yours make it 'yours' I say. Just because it is old, it doesn't have look or feel old...

Just my take....

Man, you guys are quite sensitive on this subject aren't you . Allow me quote to me for the record.

Drusky wrote: I don't have a huge problem with our buses going to another part of the planet. I would prefer to see them stay in SA but knowing wealth limitations here (read: how gat arm the general population is) I am quite sure the best chance of a decent resto is going to be in another country, like Aus or the UK. Sies!

Drusky wrote: I stand by my argument:
The average South African is poorer and less skilled with far fewer resources available to him than the average Aussie or Brit. It follows that a restoration carried out here, by the average Joe, will not be as good as one done overseas. We also seem to have a smaller population of enthusiasts.

I didn't say that SA VW/classic car enthusiasts have no skills. I do however think that there are not stacks of them. I think their resources are often limited, money, space and time. How many serious collectors are there? Guys like Fig? I have one '71 bus. I would like one, maybe two more ACVWs. I don't have space for another right now.

Barry please be so kind as to point out what part of my statement is "bullshit". If you have been following the discussion you will note I am comparing our average Joes to those "prick bastards" who insist on buying up our rusty treasures. Aussies and Brits.
There's the; we are poor part.
There's the; we have less skills part.
There's the; we have less resources part.

I really don't think you can reasonably argue against the fact that the average joe in SA is gat arm. Below, a graph of relative unemployment figures:


Go read this if you want to see how gat arm the "employed" peeps are:
http://www.statssa.gov.za/publications/ ... 122010.pdf

So... how do you like your ACVWs?

The average South African will put the Average European to shame skills wise... trust me, I work with these morons
The dutch and Germans are not "average", they are above average.
the French, Spanish, Italians, Greeks, even to an extent the English (because of their shitty attitude) are average.

Employment figures dont mean shiv when you looking at skills. We have the skills, but not the money. And no money means less jobs. Heck, if I had the money I would employ my current "grounds keeper"s entire family and have my place looking like a golf course... but I dont, so it looks like a clean desert.

Tony Z wrote:Heck, if I had the money I would employ my current "grounds keeper"s entire family and have my place looking like a golf course... but I dont, so it looks like a clean desert.

Heheheh, I like that.

I agree with you Tony as far as skilled workers goes. A good friend of mine, a European fellow, who is a mechanical engineer and managed the design department for a major car manufacturer had the following to say about German engineers. He said that they were very good at their specialized fields but did not have the broad range of skills and knowledge that an equivalent ZA engineer has. I would rather have a ZA engineer. Our skilled work force has been amazing in the past, look at Denel, SASOL etc, not sure what it will be like in the future though.
Everyone seems to be reading past what I say. I am not comparing engineers in SA to engineers in UK/OZ. I am not comparing VW enthusiasts in SA to VW enthusiasts in UK/OZ. I am comparing your average person in ZA to your average in UK/OZ.

Your graph doesn't show Greece, Spain or Portugal... EU countries all.

I concure with Barry and call BS on all three your statements.

Drawing an average over the entire SA population is inaccurate, there's a legacy here that skews the result with respect to the countries you compare SA to (or should be). You need to compare apples with apples and for that you need to compare a population group to a relevant group in another country. If you want to see how FU our country is, then you must compare population groups inside our country.

I have expounded liberally on the cost of living thing over in the UK in previous threads. A doctor over there earns GBP 25k/a and he does not live nearly as well as our doctors and denstists. Another case: my daughter is working over there 60hrs/week and she cannot get to the end of the month. If she did the same job and hours here, she'd be buying a car already and planning her next dive-holiday to the Red Sea.

There is so much skill in this country, and on this forum, that we can do anything we want. There are panels and engines and gearboxes and conversion kits for anything and everything available here, and skills to help anyone build anything. There are parts importers that can find you the rarest little part from a Friese vase to a bubble case. And there are plenty of fabulous cars on shows here and on this forum that prove these points.

But as always: where there is a will, there's a way, but where there is no will, there's no way.

Ron&Gill wrote: There is so much skill in this country, and on this forum, that we can do anything we want. There are panels and engines and gearboxes and conversion kits for anything and everything available here, and skills to help anyone build anything. There are parts importers that can find you the rarest little part from a Friese vase to a bubble case. And there are plenty of fabulous cars on shows here and on this forum that prove these points.

But as always: where there is a will, there's a way, but where there is no will, there's no way.

Well put Gov'nor.
If we look at the perspective that Drusky has put forward; they are just that. His perspective. Personally, having read his post again, I see little wrong with his point of view. That's how he sees it. The divergent perspectives emerge from how volks perceive the position. One believes lack of resources is the cause, while another believes that the attitude towards solving the challenge is the cause and that the resources (skills, components, time, money) can manifest to produce a standard, on par or in excess of the quality produced in the US, Europe or the Pacific.

There's no 'right or wrong' to this discussion, we just have different views. Besides, isn't the subject of this post, "How Do You Like Your ACVW?"?