Aircooled VW South Africa

I just got a bit of shock today - I visited a well know VW air-cooled specialist in Parow to drop off one of my vans, and they were repairing a 1975 Brazilia which had been bought not too long ago from a very well known restorer in the Eastern Cape for around R 180 000 - R 250 000 ( the mechanic was unsure of the exact amount, but it was not cheap). He was repairing the reduction box which had packed up as the result of stripped bolts causing a leak. This is the second vehicle from the same restorer which is in for repairs there in the past two weeks.

I used an opportunity to give the bus a quick look over, and I was surprised by the shoddy finish to the spray job. Lines were wavery, and preparation work was lacking in several obvious places. It looked like they had just sprayed over roughly flatted putty in places. The rubbers around the windows were wavy as well. If I'd paid over R 180 000 for this 'restored' van I'd expect it to look better than this. The paint job was quite honestly not a lot better that the R 10 000 spray job I had done on one of my kombi's recently...

So the question is: When someone pays top dollar for a "restored" kombi, how perfect a restoration should they expect? I say that for R 250 000 I want a vehicle to look as it did as it rolled off the assembly line...

"You may not always get what you paid for, but you always pay for what you get."

Not wanting to defend anyone here, but commercial restorers are always working against the clock and watching their costs. Old cars always take longer to repair/restore than one expects, because things are rusted together/botched by POs/suffering from years of neglect and abuse, etc. This applies especially to VW buses, as they have a LOT more bodywork than an average old car, and they tend to have worked very hard with little maintenance. All commercial restorations reach a point where the restorer just has to get the car completed and out of the shop and get paid for it before they start losing money.

The only way around this is to strip the vehicle yourself and farm out the various sub-assemblies (ie, engine, transmission, suspension, bodywork, electrics, etc) to the relevant experts, and check progress regularly and inspect final delivery carefully, then do all final assembly oneself.

If you don't have the skills/time/inclination to do it this way, then you just have to accept certain compromises.

in a way this is not all negative as it forced me to change browser and try and get back on the forum after some time away due to being denied logging in.
So ..I'm Back and i have something to say.

Derek you are obviously referring to my company Vintage Kombi restorations in Port Elizabeth.
Firstly , Derek have you ever restored a wreck of a splitty from scratch AT ALL , EVER ??.. obviously not because you are not even sure which are German buses and which are fleet lines and which are Brazilias, so maybe first go and familiarize yourself with some facts about splitties as a start before you become an expert on Paint, finishing and other restorations skills. in fact have you ever restored anything from scratch at all ??
Secondly, We work according to the client's budget, and you do get three different types of restorations (in case you were not aware....actually you are not aware based on your opinion) so i will take time from my extremely busy schedule and try to inform you a little more....
A) Standard restoration R180 -R230K (excluding the bus, excluding any extra's) ......DEFINITELY NOT A TOP DOLLAR RESTORATION as you would call it !!
B) Show condition restoration R290 - R390K (excluding the bus, excluding any extra"s)
C) Concourse restoration ( Now this is the one "Bright spark" that you say you would expect for R250K try R550-R600K ) No extra's.

Now i can almost hear you Gasp from where i am sitting in front of My PC in Port Elizabeth ! .....breathe.....please read this part very slowly so you can take it in and understand it properly.... "When you take a 50 year old vehicle that has worked all its life, and restore it to the same condition as it rolled off the assembly line it costs a shitload of money in parts and labour, so when we take a 50 year old vehicle and ( pay attention now please) MAKE IT LOOK NICE AGAIN PLUS GET IT DRIVING AND ROADWORTHY AGAIN to be used and enjoyed by someone with a budget, you get a nice looking 50 year old drive-able bus. and it does break down and it does have waves on the panels (unless you want 7mm thick body-filler as we have had to repair) but No it is not a new F**ing BMW with road side assistance it's a 50 year old used and abused spltiwindow kombi that was resurrected from scrap.

If you took the time to ask "the mechanic" ( Dirk) failed to mention to you (Henry wasn't in at the time otherwise you would have had more correct info) is that we have referred various of our clients to them in the past for mechanical issues as we are 750km away and if it is related to work that we had done we pay the bill without any questions. Once again ....50 years wear and tear, not brand new car, problems arise....what more can i add......Oh maybe nothing, as you seem to be the expert here.
have you ever prepped and painted a bus ??? ....never-mind. If you can get a spray job like ours for R10k , please come paint all our buses.

Bottom line, My clients have all been extremely satisfied and happy with the work we do and what it costs, and if they don't complain , i couldn't actually give a f#Ck about your opinion regarding our finish on a standard restoration.
There are facts about this specific restoration that you are unaware of , so please next time give me a call and ask me direct before you give your opinion on a public forum such as this. I may have been away for a while but i have been here for a long time.
If you want better , pay more.

So Derek , please get more info next time before you become the "professional critic" on something you have "no idea" about.

thanks

Jacques
0836547667

Well Jacques, you seem to take it for granted that I was referring to your company. Why this is obvious I have no idea, as your name was never mentioned during my chat with the mechanic - he simply mentioned that the restorer was in the Eastern Cape. As far as I know, there may be several companies doing restoration up the coast. Note that I also never mentioned anybody by name as my post was not intended as a personal attack on anybody in particular, but rather intended to open up debate on an issue which many owners of classic vehicles face. Do we go to the well known but usually expensive workshop, pay the hefty bill, only to be disappointed with the results, or do we seek out the enthusiast specialists as Fig suggests and learn how to do much of the work ourselves?

I find your post extremely offensive as you seem to have a problem with open debate and the expression of an opinion on a public forum. One does not have to be an "expert" to spot obvious flaws in workmanship on a restored vehicle - and I am definitely not an expert, but an enthusiast. Your over-reaction to my post makes me think that you are strangely defensive for a guy who claims to have so many happy customers and who believes that he produces such excellent work. You should care less for the opinions of a novice such as myself....All I can say is shame on you for your rudeness and aggressive post.

Derek, please ...the bottom line is : don't start shooting your mouth off if you don't have all the facts. ,

Derek wrote:He was repairing the reduction box which had packed up as the result of stripped bolts causing a leak. This is the second vehicle from the same restorer which is in for repairs there in the past two weeks.

you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that there are three major VW restoration companies in SA , V-Dub Tech in JHB , East Coast classics in KZN and Us , Vintage kombi in Port Elizabeth , the only eastern cape company ..
May you learn then from this experience that you do not run down someone else s work in public if:
A) you are not an expert in the field,
B) you don't know who you are running down , And
C) You have never done this kind of work yourself.

Derek wrote:and I am definitely not an expert, but an enthusiast.

Myself and my staff are absolutely passionate and dedicated to our service to vw aircooled enthusiasts, and it's not always about the money !
many people on this Forum will tell you that this was in fact my hobby that turned into a business and We have gone top great lengths for our clients and they appreciate everything we do for them , then comes along someone like yourself, that in an instant, can comment publicly about a R230K restoration, slating the paint work (comparing it to a back yard R10k spray-job) , rubbers etc, and think that all the vw enthusiasts in the country will spend days wondering who it was that you slated ? Get real Derek, nothing aggressive about my response...open debate...just the way you intended it to be, i do have the right to inform you properly and educate you at the same time ....

Derek wrote: Your over-reaction to my post makes me think that you are strangely defensive for a guy who claims to have so many happy customers and who believes that he produces such excellent work. You should care less for the opinions of a novice such as myself.

I though i dealt with this statement in my previous post ...

splitbusahollic wrote:Bottom line, My clients have all been extremely satisfied and happy with the work we do and what it costs, and if they don't complain , i couldn't actually give a f#Ck about your opinion regarding our finish on a standard restoration.

go read the Klassic Fab thread and see what i have brought to vintage Vw restorations in SA up to now.... then have respect.

to see the restoration in question , please go to Vintage Kombi , on Face book under photo's / Albums , the "Paarl" 11 window restoration "Karsten bus"
then feel free to leave a comment ....

Not going to get into the specifics here as I have no insights, but Fig pretty much nailed it.

Doing this stuff 'right' takes a LOT of time. The key here is 'right' and for the customer and shop to very clearly understand expectations and what can be done with the available budget. I haven't studied one of Jacques' buses but the pricing mentioned sounds about right. If the customer is expecting a R600k+ job and only willing/able to pay R200k they are likely to be disappointed.
I have encouraged people in the past to REALLY educate themselves on what the work entails, even if they aren't going to do the work themselves. (two past clients attended my sheet metal courses while I was working on their vehicles - all of a sudden they started paying their bills without any hesitation or argument).
It has reached the point where I am no longer taking on 'resto' work, as (almost) inevitably there are budget constraints which would mean putting out work below the standard that I am prepared to work at.
Obviously working on specific models, Jacques is more likely to be able to give a 'quote', being fairly familiar with what to expect. There is no way I would EVER give a firm quote on this type of work again though - there are simply too many variables that cannot be predicted at the start. I've been burnt before - I'd rather work on my own stuff for 'free'. At the very best I can give a customer a broad estimate, and communication throughout the process is key for everyone to be vaguely happy....

The onus really is on the customer, not the shop, to ensure that they are well versed in what needs to be done, and what to expect in terms of quality. HINT: what you see on the TV shows is not a good guide.......

Also, making judgement on a vehicle at face value is pretty pointless unless you know the history of the discussion etc between shop and client.

The other side of this coin though, is that there are MANY shops around that will happily charge high end prices for very average work - do your research VERY carefully as it seems that they are all over, and somehow continually seem to find punters. Guess I should have learned to talk slicker.....

Also - a R10K respray? I'm sure you'll find someone willing to do it for that, but just do some math: If you buy decent quality materials, you're on the wrong side of R5K already. Have you ever done a proper respray? I'd wager at least 80-100 hours in labour for stripping, proper prep work, primer, flatting, spray, buff, re-assembly

Unless it is a 'mask,scuff and squirt' there is NO way anyone can do it at that price except as a subsistence or sideline (and they'd be screwing themselves if they did)......

I'm not going to waste time responding at length to Jacques diatribe. My intention was never to attack any restorer directly, but rather raise the question: If we spend top dollar do we get perfect results? I am after all a client, not a supplier, so this is a question I have often asked myself. I saw what one gets for R 230 000 and was not impressed - that is my opinion. The splitty does look great on first glance - but it's not a perfect restoration and I accept that possibly budgetary restraints were responsible for that.

I am not a restorer, I am a client. I do not undertake bolt-up complete restorations of the kombi's I own, but I have overseen the partial restoration of eight kombi's/campers during my brief involvement with the classic camper hire business. I am very well aware of how much time an obsessive restoration can take - and what it will cost unless one is doing the bulk of the work oneself. For that reason I have sought out a panelshop which although equipped with a spraybooth and two dedicated panelbeaters, makes most of its money from a large attached mechanical workshop. At a very reasonable cost of R 8 000 - R 25 000 they offer various levels of respray, but generally remove and refit all windows, lights and exterior fittings. Their spraywork is of "medium" quality for the price, and if there are major rust issues they replace rusted metal with new metal, but not imported panels of course. I need a vehicle which is cosmetically good, but still character-filled and showing it's 40-odd years of history. I reckon that they undercharge for the work they do, but maybe I'm getting a bulk discount as I bring them a kombi a month on average My business model doesn't allow for a "perfect" spray job costing R 60 000.

Mechanical work is where I spend more money - redoing the whole front steering mechanism, having the brake system refurbished, new shocks fitted, etc. The engine is serviced and repairs done where necessary, but no rebuild unless required. We try and get the vehicle as mechanically sound as is possible within our budget, and then we maintain the vehicles well. If I buy a kombi for R 23 000 - R 35 000 I try and spend not more than the purchase price on refurbishment. I do a lot of the smaller jobs myself, especially on the interior. So by the time a camper goes out for hire I've spent R 50 000 - R 70 000 in total. which is about the market value for a reasonable condition Westfalia.

My experience over the past year is that generally you do NOT get what you pay for, even when using "reputable" workshops. Vehicles often have to go back 2-3 times before one is happy with the job. I am currently suing a well known VW workshop in CT for damage they caused to a Syncro diff a while ago through shoddy workmanship. It seems though that most of the VW enthusiasts on this forum are happier than I am with what they get for their hard-earned money...

Derek , in your opening post you made quite a strong statement regarding the finish on this bus, just so there is no confusion about the model, it is actually a 1966 German 11 window bus.

Derek wrote:I used an opportunity to give the bus a quick look over, and I was surprised by the shoddy finish to the spray job. Lines were wavery, and preparation work was lacking in several obvious places. It looked like they had just sprayed over roughly flatted putty in places. The rubbers around the windows were wavy as well. If I'd paid over R 180 000 for this 'restored' van I'd expect it to look better than this. The paint job was quite honestly not a lot better that the R 10 000 spray job I had done on one of my kombi's recently...

For starters , you may be used to revamping a bus that is complete and a runner , has all it's doors, handles, glass, bolts, nuts, hinges, etc etc ...these splitties come to us just as a rolling shell, no engine, brakes , parts like gear shaft, gear lever, pedal assembly , complete doors, and half the reduction box parts,door handles,locks, window glass, window frames, and the list goes on and on and on ... All missing in action!!!
Most of these parts are imported as they are not available locally,this is an expensive exercise....now we haven't even talked about cutting out all the rust and replacing with Klassic Fab panels yet ( done by qualified panel-beaters with years of experience ) ....then all the electrical stuff, new wiring loom, all the switches ...on and on the list goes....the bus then goes for prep and Paint, in a Proper spray booth with heating, by a qualified spay-painter with 22 years experience gained at the VW factory in Uitenhage
The labour in such a complete rebuild accumulates to hours of work, and this is also not cheap, the restoration takes 11 to 12 months ...so forgive me for getting a little pissed off at your very opinionated negative comments of our work after a very brief glance at the bus in question.
furthermore...the client then also adds extras, like an imported vintage retro radio (not cheap), speakers, stainless steel roof rack, ...custom interior , upholstery ...etc ..so i'm afraid if you struggle to see R180-R200k's worth of value in that, then you have no idea what you are talking about. ....and a spray job for R10k...? maybe the guy's doing your buses should read this thread and start charging you to correct prices for what you are getting...... these are 50 year old vehicles and so is the technology, there are always a few teething problems in any restoration of this magnitude where it's is considered as a complete rebuild, so YES it has to go for a few tweaks and minor repairs after it get's to be on the road again after 30 or 40 years lying somewhere in the bush on a farm in the karoo.. and rebuilt with an array of parts from all over the world. makes sense Hence the fact that we make use of Henry for such unforeseen issues.

My request to you in closure of this discussion is the following....
The next time you briefly look something over , maybe consider the facts of what it actually constituted to get the vehicle back on the road and looking as nice as it does , before you run it down...rather say that "in your opinion the finish could have been slightly better, and the rubbers fitted slightly more straight" ( even though i can't seem to find a pic of "wavy" rubbers any where in the fully documented restoration portfolio )... and you won't end up pissing someone like Me off.

i attach a few pic's of this restoration for your amusement....

Well Jacques, if anybody is opinionated it surely must be you...I think you hopelessly overestimate your reputation - but that is of course just my opinion Discussion concluded.

Hi. I'm no expert, but that bus looks great on the pics.
I've read all the posts and have come to the conclusion that whether you are getting what you paid for depends on what exactly you paid for.
Let me make my point a bit clearer:
The owner of the bus is happy with the finished product (if we go by what Jacues has said about his customers) and got what he paid for as far as he is conserned. Derek on the other hand is not happy with Vintage Kombi's work, because he is use to paying R8k-R25k for a RESPRAY. This is where Derek is making unfair comparisons.
The bus that Derek is refering to was not merely resprayed. It has been fully restored, which entails rebuilt engine, rebuild gearbox, imported parts and panels, many many hrs of work, complete disasembly and reasembly of the bus from the ground up, respray, re-upholstry, etc.
The respray is one of the cheaper things on the list (if you want your old vw to look ''correct'', you don't do a R50k paintjob on it).
So this is where the misunderstanding lies. The bus in question was RESTORED, not merely RESPRAYED.

Also, to expect a ''R600k'' (if we go by Vintage Kombi's prices, which is fair in my opinion, check parts prices alone if you don't think its fair) job for ''R200k'' is bit like paying for a service of your motor vehicle and expecting to get a turbo installed.

Yes, you get exactly what you pay for, provided you and your service provider are in agreement over what it is that you are paying for.

Just my opinion
Brendin

Derek wrote: So by the time a camper goes out for hire I've spent R 50 000 - R 70 000 in total. which is about HALF the market value for a reasonable condition Westfalia.

Fixed it for you ...

Hi I am not sure that we are gaining anything by this conversation There will always be those that can do it cheaper better and faster than anybody else. I own cars that have been painted by professionals and also those painted through my own efforts. Doing a restoration against time will invariable give problems but then doing it at your own pace ...... My Puma is going for 14years now. at least I have a perfect paint job.
If you look at the type of cars that the OP uses and for his business I recently bought and rebuilt a beetle for R6000 including a 2056cc type four engine But replicating that same exact car for a customer would be much closer to R60000 so my hats off to the guys that do it for a living I would love to do that but the reality is that these guys don't really make it large And I know quite a few personally.

In my opinion a R10000 rand spray job is not worth it except for use and abuse type of work.
Armand

That restored bus looks absolutely awesome, I'd love one like that, great work Jacques!!!

Been a business man for 44 years, and there will always be guys that want perfection for their penny's and no body is worth their Rands.

Then there are the other that can not do anything, as they have ten thumbs, but can criticise every body else s work.

If you can do it better, then do it your self.

If you can not, then you have to pay for the skill of the other person , not just his time.

If its to costly, then you have the right to walk away.

Herman