Building a monster (cheap) type IV engine

Whatever you want to put in the back of your VW...
User avatar
eben
Site Admin
Posts: 6449
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:40 pm
What model do you have?: None
Facebook: www.facebook.com/ebenve
Location: Fintice, Slovakia
Has thanked: 91 times
Been thanked: 54 times
Contact:
Slovakia

Building a monster (cheap) type IV engine

Post by eben »

Hi guys... this is an article that Armand wrote some time ago.....

I got it from here http://retro.co.za/puma/armand-engine.html

I'd like to build one of these sometime
Armand Botha proposed the following for a not-too expensive big engine.
Use a 411 block. The cylinder holes need to be enlarged, for the rest the block is standard. The fuel injection block is the best choice since it has a windage tray. (Note from Wouter: my FI block had none).

Make sleeves from old Deutz (Industrial or Samil) sleeves, which are readily available at about R10 each. (Note from Wouter: A Samil is a South African Military vehicle, and readily available is in SA, of course). The sleeves are 100mm and can be bored to 101mm after which they are discarded -- we bore them to 101.6 mm to take Chev pistons. The sleeves must also be shortened to about half their original size. This can be an expensive exercise if you don't know someone with a lathe.

The Chev pistons need to be cut to take circlips, the aluminium pin buttons do NOT work. The heads also need to be cut to take the new sleeves, and the fins need slight modification too. The holes for the studs (wrm: I assume in the cylinders) are almost right and can be doctored with a file.

Using a 1700/1800 crank, displacement is 2140cc, and with the 2L crank you get 2300cc. I find that the smaller engine revs better, up to 7000+ rpm, but of course the bigger engine makes more power.

Use Nissan valves (big and cheap), 2.8 Skyline inlet and 2.4 Tracker exhaust. This does wonders for the breathing. Use 2L hydraulic valve springs, they can take the punch.

Send your camshaft to Ritchie Jute in Johannesburg and get him to cut the profile VW13, send him the lifters too for rebuilding. This cam profile gives about 280 degrees which is not too temperamental.

The rest of the engine is standard.

My fastback got 6000rpm in fourth (4.125 diff) using two 36 webers from an alfa and the electronic distributor from a 1900 wasserboxer.

You won't believe the performance of this engine.

(freely translated from Afrikaans by wrm)


hits since 2002-03-07.
Back to Puma technical page (This page last modified 2002-03-08)


User avatar
Thumper
Carburettor
Posts: 1946
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:00 pm
What model do you have?: Just scale models
Location: Cape Town
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 13 times
South Africa

Post by Thumper »

I like it a lot! 8) The gearbox on the thumper-mobile has probably never been touched. Can it take the torque?

As we are in the Type IV section:

if the fuel injection still works on the type IV engine, is it better to stay with FI, or is dual carbs the most reliable route? I often hear that twin carbs go out of sync if the linkage etc is poor. And mechanical links just wear out anyway. Or just go for a larger single carb?
My Bug: http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopi ... 37&t=12416" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
eben
Site Admin
Posts: 6449
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:40 pm
What model do you have?: None
Facebook: www.facebook.com/ebenve
Location: Fintice, Slovakia
Has thanked: 91 times
Been thanked: 54 times
Contact:
Slovakia

Post by eben »

It greatly depends on what kind of carb you are using.
The Dual singlethroat Solex's that my engine came out with had a lost of wear in the throttle shaft area and fuel actually dripped out of there..
The current Dell'Ortos that I have on has ballbearings that locate the throttle shafts plus seals... wich is resistant to wear and leaks.

Same applies to linkages... You have seen my homemade linkage....not really ideal at all but it works for me... Of course you can buy yourself a linkage from CSP or EMPI or any of those that is much more stable and accurate.


With regards to the FI... If you want to go the FI route make sure that you have ALL the FI parts(fuel pump, elbows, hoses, sensors, wirin harness) Mind you if you intend to put it in a beetle the stock FI would't work because the upright cooling has to be where the stock intake runners would go. Aftermarket throttlebodies would work or you could make your own and run them with Gotech EFI.... 4agedub could help you there.....

with single carb setups the intake manifold length is normally the prohibitive factor.
User avatar
Thumper
Carburettor
Posts: 1946
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:00 pm
What model do you have?: Just scale models
Location: Cape Town
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 13 times
South Africa

Post by Thumper »

Thanks Eben. 8) Ideally I want a big power engine, with low maintenance. :) Type IV power/torque seems to be the best way to do it. A 1700cc or 1800cc will need no extra internal work to give the Bug a good boost! 8) (Type 1 cannot do that without serious surgery)

FI is out then. Is it true that the long manifold length adds torque? Or does it just slow reaction time. And will the manifold be longer on a type IV than a type1?

I can get a Type IV motor, still negotiating ??. But it has FI bits on it, incomplete however. I fear carbs and inlet manifolds is going to be the biggest cost here. :(
My Bug: http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopi ... 37&t=12416" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
eben
Site Admin
Posts: 6449
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:40 pm
What model do you have?: None
Facebook: www.facebook.com/ebenve
Location: Fintice, Slovakia
Has thanked: 91 times
Been thanked: 54 times
Contact:
Slovakia

Post by eben »

you have to remember that the Type IV never came with single carbs so you'd have to fab something if you want to go that way. The intake length has got an effect on torque and power... Long manifolds = pull strongly at low revs
Shorter manifolds=more power at high revs.

Modern cars like the v6 mazda/ford engines actually have flaps that automaticly vary the intake length to suit the demand.

I have a 4 manifolds 1 long set & 1 short set for the Type IV/Solex setup if you are interested.... you can have them

Have you spoken to Armand about his shroud yet or do you have something else in mind?
User avatar
Thumper
Carburettor
Posts: 1946
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:00 pm
What model do you have?: Just scale models
Location: Cape Town
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 13 times
South Africa

Post by Thumper »

I will take you up on your offer, thanks Eben. :D

I want to use the shroud that Armand made. Why re-invent the wheel? :lol: However, I need the IV engine in my garage before I go on to step two.

I am going to e-mail Armand for costs etc soon.
My Bug: http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopi ... 37&t=12416" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
4agedub
Exhaust Pipe
Posts: 1613
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:36 am
What model do you have?: Bug 1970,1972, 1974
Location: Centurion
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 13 times
Contact:

Post by 4agedub »

The type 4 engine can be a torque machine... but not allways cheap! It all depends on which route you go.

A stock crank engine should still be cheapish, but as soon as you go the stroker route be prepared to pay $$$ . If I remember correctly the 80mm stroker cranks from Scat retails at about R12 000.00.

But then again I found that a type 4 is cheaper than a stroker type 1.

For the fuel injection route do give me a call... it makes a huge difference. Both in power and fuel economy. On my t1 I found that the engine is a lot smoother with the injection than what it was with the 40mm idf 's. Without tuning the car for economy I'm getting 10km /l on my 2180cc type 1.
VW Beetle 1303 - 2165cc Turbo
VW Beetle 1971 2332cc
VW Beetle 1969 - 2666cc Turbo
VW Beetle 1974 - 1600
User avatar
Merlin
ACVWSA Junkie
Posts: 6113
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:46 pm
What model do you have?:  Various
Location: Cape Town, ZA
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 39 times
Contact:

Post by Merlin »

How do you go about installing injection on a stock T1?

What's involved, etc.?

Cost, and availability?

Cheers, N.

PS: What exactly is a "stroker"?
"Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer, the rear.
Hp is how fast you hit the wall, and Torque is how far you take the wall with you."
sled wrote:well obviously the UK is wrong.
User avatar
4agedub
Exhaust Pipe
Posts: 1613
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:36 am
What model do you have?: Bug 1970,1972, 1974
Location: Centurion
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 13 times
Contact:

Post by 4agedub »

The fuel injection conversion is a bit complex... you can go one of a couple of routes.

You can go individual throttle bodies, whitch looks like weber carbs. The injectors then sit in the throttle bodies. Or you can go for a single throttle body and then modify the intake manifolds.

I'll try to post some pics of the installation... price wise it all depends on how far you want to go. It can be anything from R5000.00 to R20 000.00 depending on the setup.

Stoker is a longer stroke crank. More stroke = more CC
VW Beetle 1303 - 2165cc Turbo
VW Beetle 1971 2332cc
VW Beetle 1969 - 2666cc Turbo
VW Beetle 1974 - 1600
User avatar
vader
ACVWSA Junkie
Posts: 6465
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am
What model do you have?: TieFighter
Location: Help!I don't know where I am. Its dark & I can hear voices...
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 10 times

Post by vader »

It's got to do with levers.... the longer the lever (crank stroke) piviting around a axis (main bearings) the higher the torque (Nm). Remember there are three levers here. So a 69mm crank generates less torque (Nm) than a 75mm crank. Stroker cranks are made in two ways, OEM or engineering, taking a 69mm welding it around the big end and then machining the big end around a new centre point making it a 75mm stroke... Understand?
"My other ride is your SeatCover! & She loves it!"
Sometimes you'r the statue, sometimes your the pigeon.
"Only the dead go free..." Roger Waters.
"You do not understand the power of the DarkSide" Darth Vader.
Class 11 streeter
Oil Stain
Posts: 142
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:01 am
What model do you have?: 8.5 Beetles!
Location: High Desert of California, USA

Post by Class 11 streeter »

Can your VW shops in SA source the Keith Black hypereutectic 96mm pistons for type 4? Those could be used with bored out 1.8 (93mm) or 2.0 (94mm) cylinders.

Type 1 pistons cannot be used "as is" due to the type 1 22mm wrist pin vs. the type 4 24mm, but a clever man will realize a smaller wrist pin bore can be made larger.
I don't know it all, just enough to be dangerous!
User avatar
Tony Z
Donor
Donor
Posts: 14991
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:33 am
What model do you have?: 2.3L 69; 1302; P/Van
Location: Klipheuwel (near Durbanville), Cape Town or working at sea
Has thanked: 191 times
Been thanked: 487 times
South Africa

Post by Tony Z »

MTM.... a simple way of describing what a storker engine is...
the stroke is the distance the piston moves up and down (left and right in our case - pun - get it??). A "stroker" engine is an engine that has a longer than stock stroke (it has been stroked).

Class 11 is correct with what he says about not being able to use a T1 94mm piston in a T4 engine. But it is a simple conversion. Any decent machine shop can pull out the small end sleeve and replace it with a new sleeve that has been machined for the T1 gudgeon pin... a good tip here... mock up the engine and check your deckheight. Then get the new small end machined slightly off centre to adjust the deckheight to where you want it - you got 1mm to offset grind before you start worrying about the strength you loose...
plus the T1 piston is about 200g lighter than the T4
User avatar
Merlin
ACVWSA Junkie
Posts: 6113
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:46 pm
What model do you have?:  Various
Location: Cape Town, ZA
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 39 times
Contact:

Post by Merlin »

Thanks for the info chaps.

Not sure I follow, but hey, if you go faster, why not? *lol* ;)

Class 11...I'd be amazed if most ZA shops could source their arse from their trousers. :roll:

N.
"Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer, the rear.
Hp is how fast you hit the wall, and Torque is how far you take the wall with you."
sled wrote:well obviously the UK is wrong.
User avatar
vader
ACVWSA Junkie
Posts: 6465
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am
What model do you have?: TieFighter
Location: Help!I don't know where I am. Its dark & I can hear voices...
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 10 times

Post by vader »

MTM (Merlin The Misslead) go to the Scat website they have loads of info on cranks, how they are made blablabla... Makes for good reading and you get to learn some new stuff and by the time you have read everything you'll want to upgrade to a stroker!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: The bus wont really make more topend ( I understand you drive Miss Daisy around :flash: ) but it will pull like a steam engine and you won't feel it when you go up Makro hill in topgear.... Speaking of which has anyone got news on young Hammond of TopGear fame??? Is he alive? Is he a veg? Does he still have his shinny teeth ? :shock: :twisted:
"My other ride is your SeatCover! & She loves it!"
Sometimes you'r the statue, sometimes your the pigeon.
"Only the dead go free..." Roger Waters.
"You do not understand the power of the DarkSide" Darth Vader.
Guest

Post by Guest »

Hi,
you obviously know the whole conversion business - I am not technical too glued up(theoreticaly yes).
I've got a 2 l Type 4 engine-I do have a 76 Beetle S and 912 Porsche-
I would like to get the type 4 built to fit into my 912 - with a nice hp output.
do you know of somebody who can do that in a normal price bracket.
If you don't know ,maybe you can put me in contact with somebody who does it.
regards
Martin
Post Reply