Building a monster (cheap) type IV engine

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Re: Building a monster (cheap) type IV engine

Post by Pine »

I'm sure the ladies will love your shortened sleeve(s) :wink:


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Re: Building a monster (cheap) type IV engine

Post by Blitzkrieg »

I'm sure that they will, especially if it's part of a wild 2140cc turbo type 4 :twisted: :mrgreen:
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Re: Building a monster (cheap) type IV engine

Post by Wentzel »

Hi I remembered this post from a long time ago when I came across it. Can anybody help with more information on this? Maybe 4AGE or IMPI?? Where on earth will I be able to source the Samil Sleeves?

Thank You
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Re: Building a monster (cheap) type IV engine

Post by 4agedub »

There is a magirus deutz outlet in Jet Park, I'm sure they would be able to help.
You can maybe try these guys as well http://www.bwts.co.za/products_samil.htm
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Re: Building a monster (cheap) type IV engine

Post by slak »

Also go to motor engineering shops and ask them for old sleeves as most of them
don't bother reboring the old sleeves they just fit new ones and scrap the old ones
U might pick them up for scrap metal price
if U'r serious do the footwork and U will find a set somewhere
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Re: Building a monster (cheap) type IV engine

Post by 4agedub »

Good idea Slak
As they will be bored out anyway you can use 2nd hand barrels. I think they come as 95mm bore std and the Chev v8 pistons are 101.6mm. Those barrels can be opened for 105mm if need be.

The guy that does my machining is based next to Zwartkops race track, Corrie 083 6792669. He is the best guy I know to shorten barrels... his work is tops.
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Re: Building a monster (cheap) type IV engine

Post by Dawie »

Deutz 912 series engines have 100mm bore x 120mm stroke.

The 913 series- 102mm bore x 125mm stroke. Samil 20 had F6L913 engines. The "6" stands for "6 cylinders", and the "L" for "Luft" or "Air"- cooled.
"F3L913" would be a 3-cylinder version. "BF6L913" is the turbocharged version. ("B" stands for turbo). BF6L913C is turbocharged and intercooled. ("C" for charge cooled).

The larger Deutz V6- V12 engines were 413 and 513 series. (Larger bores).

The 912 and 913 series are very similar, looks alike and many parts are interchangeable.
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Re: Building a monster (cheap) type IV engine

Post by eben »

On a side note... are you guys aware of the heritage of Deutz?
Established by the inventor of the 4 stroke engine, Nikolaus Otto.
Past employees: Eugen Langen, Gottlieb Daimler, Wilhelm Maybach, Prosper L'Orange, Rudolf Diesel, Robert Bosch and Ettore Bugatti.
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Re: Building a monster (cheap) type IV engine

Post by Wentzel »

Thanks guys I am still looking into this but would like to do it. I will try to find exactly what engine uses the 95-105mm bore before I start asking around, BTW how thick are the sleeves if they can be opened to 105mm? What valves can be used or should I try to find Type 4 s/s aftermarket valves? Are Chevy pistons forged? and can they handle forced induction?

P.S. Sorry for all the questions I'm new to the Type 4 and these conversions.
Last edited by Wentzel on Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Building a monster (cheap) type IV engine

Post by 4agedub »

You get forged and cast chevy pistons, obviously the forged pistons are more expensive. Personally I would not go smaller than 103mm. 60 Oversize from 350ci.
For the valves, go to the spares shop and ask to look though the spares book... just have a look at which valves have the right kind of length. I think we used mercedes exhaust valves on the 2666cc engine.

The biggest problem from what I have found is to tighten the heads properly. Maybe upgraded cylinder head studs would help.
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Re: Building a monster (cheap) type IV engine

Post by riaanj »

4agedub wrote:You get forged and cast chevy pistons, obviously the forged pistons are more expensive. Personally I would not go smaller than 103mm. 60 Oversize from 350ci.
For the valves, go to the spares shop and ask to look though the spares book... just have a look at which valves have the right kind of length. I think we used mercedes exhaust valves on the 2666cc engine.

The biggest problem from what I have found is to tighten the heads properly. Maybe upgraded cylinder head studs would help.
I have heard talk of people adding a 5th stud, per cylinder, to fasten the heads.. Don't know how true or effective this is?
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Re: Building a monster (cheap) type IV engine

Post by Dawie »

For added strength when using larger bores, the Germans have a clever way of welding an extra cooling fin to the head. This helps to improve sealing. (More strength in head structure to help retain it's shape).

Something like this by Udo Becker:
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Re: Building a monster (cheap) type IV engine

Post by IMPI »

The Duetz cylinders are made from ductile iron (cast iron with steel properties) this makes it suited for boost conditions.
there are two types small stud holes (about 10mm and larger ones about 15mm) the larger ones need minor filing to fit the type four stud configuration
the std bore should be 100mm and can be overbored to 101.6 I wouldn't go for a 040 which is 1mm oversize as this leaves you without further rebuild options.
cutting used cylinders is a bitch as the fins becomes very hard in use it is easier to break them off than to machine them down the insides are easily cut closer to the cylinder.
I used Nissan skyline valves (2.8gtx) intake and tracker exhausts but it seems that 914 sized valves are actually better 42 x36 and there are less issues with those.
the head is very thin next to the sparkplug and this is where distortion starts (the 914 two liter had a different plug angle which left more meat in this area. some guys weld up the plug hole moves it and welds up the entire top fin.
I have found that the stock head washers collapse under heat and that is the cause for most cylinder leaks The studs are fine for the torque values used. I like 5mm thick washers.
on my turbo I ran cast pistons and did not damage them with 137 kw on the flywheel
they require significant mods though: shortened pins and circlip grooves the thick rings also does not like high revs but I think they are more detonation resistant
custom forged pistons will be nice but as with anything they are expensive
as the gudgeon pin is slightly smaller re bushing is also required
Don't flycut the heads more than 1mm absolute max otherwise it will leak even more
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Re: Building a monster (cheap) type IV engine

Post by Wentzel »

Hi Armand thank you for the input. What are my options if I'm willing to spend a bit more in search of more kW? I'm asking because I currently have around 144kW with my Beetle engine and was hoping to be able to do better using a Type 4. I will make it a long term project and pay more attention to detail and spend a bit more on parts etc.

Won't the engine run very hot with the Deutz cylinders and boost? How much did you boost?

How difficult is it to find 914 valves/heads? Who can I trust with the piston mods and exactly what is to be done?

I had a look at some type 4 parts available over the sea and it is amazing what can be found. Unfortunately at a price but I guess you get what you pay for in the end.
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Re: Building a monster (cheap) type IV engine

Post by IMPI »

Hi I only boosted 0.45 and this was way before we had programmable fi systems I used wbx parts and never had the thing set up properly.
A friend Hermann ortlepp made more than 225kw out of basically a std 2 liter sub with a side draft and a t4 turbo he used KS pistons and also Nissan valves a reground cam by Camtech (not turbo friendly)
I would say that for turbo use I would rather build an 1800 66x93 and boost the hell out of it 1800s had the largest stock valves 41x34 and the extra meat will really help to get long life
Valves are made in Sa but not cheap anymore you can count on spending 4000 a set.
heat was not too bad
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