Am I the only one concerned? ...

[fig]

Am I the only one here who is concerned at the number of times forum members offer papers of scrapped cars for sale, presumably for the purpose of "legalising" cars without papers?

Let me state up front that I'm not accusing anyone of anything, and that I too am prepared to do whatever it takes to register cars when the authorities have tried to make it so difficult as to be impossible.

BUT, what's being offered here is also a way to "legalise" stolen cars, and we all know how many Beetles have been stolen over the past year, and that none of them has ever been seen again.

Also, the act of selling papers and ID plates of scrapped cars, for any purpose, is probabbly regarded by the authorities as a serious crime. Openly advertising this, even in a closed forum, strikes me as being somewhat foolhardy.

Another concern that I have is that as soon as a vehicle's true identity is lost, it loses all value to a collector. This may work to keep an old banger on the go as a cheap runabout, but it has no historic value. Of course, VWSA is guilty here, since it seems they never stamped VINs onto chassis during the 1970s, so the (easily removeable) VIN plate is the only record of a car's true identity.

If I were to offer papers and ID plates for sale in this way, I sure as hell wouldn't be doing it openly on a public forum. We don't know who is watching. Also, I would be VERY careful who I sold such things to; the last thing any of us needs would be to support car thieves to legalise stolen cars.

What do thers think?

[Muderick]

I fully agree with you Fig. To put it simply, I would never put myself in the position of offering or buying paperwork for any vehicle.

You get enough from the law just trying to prove that your legal vehicle is indeed that. Case in point is when the lady at the municipality updated the chassis number on the system when my beetle was transferred from the previous owners name to mine, and subsequently left out the first digit from my 116..... beetle chassis number..... It took me almost 3 months to prove to them that the disparity was a finger error, even though the tard of a woman at the Vehicle clearance took pictures of both plates on my beetle....

I eventually got joy after speaking to the Kaptein in charge in PTA!

Just my 5c....

Muds

[Chris]

It seems obvious that it won't be sold to dubious people.In most cases it's sold to people that have been battling for months to get papers.I'm sure that not one of the guys here are thieves that have stolen a car that needs other papers.And the guys that are doing it obviously has their own supply of papers.

If you buy a Beetle,and use the pan because yours is rusted,you'll have to do the same anyway.And who says that you haven't bought the pan.....?

[fig]

I'm not saying anyone shouldn't be doing it; I already said I would do it myself if that would solve the problem of an otherwise legitimate car without papers.

But it is still illegal, and not a petty crime at that (you would be charged with car theft and fraud at least). I'm just surprised that people are being so open about it as there is an obvious risk to them, and also to all of us. If the authorities get an idea that this sort of thing is happening a lot, then they will just make life even more difficult for us.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting people don't do this. I'm just pointing out the obvious risks and asking everyone what they think about it.

[Chris]

The idea is to do it at quietly as possible.

[JohnHoffe]

And the guys that are doing it obviously has their own supply of papers.

Yes, we do.

I have even found a place on-line where you can buy papers and tag plates: http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/offered .

I agree with Fig, it is a dangerous practice that should be done (if done at all!) a little more discreetly.....

My brother won himself a 5 year suspended sentence for car theft because a "good friend" left (legal & stolen) tag plates and registration papers lying around at my brothers' shop....

[1972]

mmmmmmm now if im not a criminal and my car wasnt stolen how do i get my beetle registered? ,under the table is the only way to do it without spending copious amounts of money trying to get your car licenced and at the end of the day having to bribe the official to actually get something done so that they dont end up sending you in circles to eventually find that you wasting your time, i agree with you Fig that there are alot of people out there that could get there hands on the papers and end up having someone elses nice ACVW on the road with out you even knowing the only thing is that some verry (no criminal) members like myself sit where we at the end of the day need to buy papers and plates for our cars so that our money spent doesnt just sit around till our ACVW's get reintroduced.......... am i wrong with what im saying if so feel free to prove me wrong

[fig]

mmmmmmm now if im not a criminal and my car wasnt stolen how do i get my beetle registered? ,under the table is the only way to do it without spending copious amounts of money trying to get your car licenced and at the end of the day having to bribe the official to actually get something done so that they dont end up sending you in circles to eventually find that you wasting your time, i agree with you Fig that there are alot of people out there that could get there hands on the papers and end up having someone elses nice ACVW on the road with out you even knowing the only thing is that some verry (no criminal) members like myself sit where we at the end of the day need to buy papers and plates for our cars so that our money spent doesnt just sit around till our ACVW's get reintroduced.......... am i wrong with what im saying if so feel free to prove me wrong

Not wrong. Just missing the point. I'm not expressing a judgment about people doing this. I am saying it is not prudent to sell papers and VIN plates on the internet.

[1972]

i understand and agree

[Eugene]

I think the point is, that it is against the law, which makes it a criminal offence, which might just reflect negatively on the forum and it's members. Rather say you’re selling a beetle with papers.

[forcecooled]

Hear, Hear Fig!

[Chris]

That is what I'm saying,everybody bought a chassis with papers.

[johanb]

Fig you have a point there,, agree with you,, Pity the VIN no is not somewhere on the body

[Chris]

Well,now that is all out there for everyone to disguss,and seeing that it's drawing so much attention,the "Illegal act" will most likely not be offered again.

I can't see that buying another car,and building all you old car's parts over and then registering that car in your name is so different.From now on all papers will be sold with a car.

[karmakoma]

How I feel about it: I sold my beetle a couple of months ago because it did not have papers, and I didnt know how legal or illegal "buying papers" was. Also, I did not have the stomach and time to go through the hassle of doing it the right way.

I want to say - well if it was a samba I would buy the papers, but no, if it was an original Samba I would go through the effort to do it the right way, not because it adds more value, but because its the right thing to do. (I'll be off my soapbox in a moment , bear with me). If we succumb and start doing things the same way as the rest of the criminals, who are we to point fingers?

So yes, I am the sucker who pays his TV license and his speeding fines, although I also think the system sucks and government is mostly incompetent. Lesson/Moral of the story, dont put yourself in that position, buy a car with papers and dont even LOOK at those that dont have them, it will just tempt you. Unless you find a Samba without papers, then you call me first! I'll waste a couple days in Government queues for that!

In Conclusion
If you want to buy "papers", I would encourage you not to, but won't judge you, everyone has their reasons, but for goodness sake dont broadcast it over the entire internet..