The Official Debate thread

[dsan]

The one thing that an exported bus/bug does have over it's SA counterpart is often the work being done to it.

Don't get me wrong, the peeps on this board often have high quality rides, but your average joe still views an old car as crap. SA has NO CLASSIC CAR CULTURE!! period.

Granted, good cars are leaving these shores at a silly price, that's a sign of how they are valued here. What it does mean, and has been pointed out, is that spares are suffering as a cause.

So unless everyone on here buys a barn find car and restores it, often there isn't much you can do. Gumtree tonight has 3 decent vans for sale, all at a silly price.

[Dutch_Diver]

Do you know....I actually feel guilty for wanting to take Mo & Rosie back with me as I know how you all feel about it. I have discussed with Emma selling them to keep them here but she doesn't understand my views. That's why I did a thread and told you all openly. I don't want to be considered as a forum member who stole a car from your beautiful shores. I'm already very sad that I have to leave this beautiful country (by the way...Cape Town much nicer than Durban!) not of my own choice.

Well anyway. Ron, I won't be selling Mo & Rosie for a very long time and I do promise that I will offer them on this forum at a fair price for a long period if the time comes when money is seriously required.

I wish I had not mentioned on Nigel's ask for info on Jurgens thread but Ron again, I'm telling you, in the UK there are people who aren't VW enhustics but would love to buy one for a low enough price. The UK prices are too high for them and I promise you they only think of California or Florida are the places to go for a cheap rust free VW. They would not ever think of SA.....I know because I never knew that SA had classis VW's as RHD for low money!

[Chris]

What has happened to this site?

2 years ago I nearly got crucified for mentioning the idea of exporting being one's free choice.At that stage I wasn't fully aware of the problem.Now it seems if you get upset about cars being exported or that have already been exported,you also get in trouble.

Shite,I'm too old to change my point of view and my opinions every two years.So,my opinion is mine and I'm sticking to my guns.

Dutch,I will never consider you an exporter.

[Tom Bishop]

The Truth:

Dutch was sent to ZA by UKVWImports to seek and aquire ACVWs for export. Unfortuanatly he has become too attached to his mission and has been recall for re-training.


Yep, This STORY is a lot of CR@P.

[eben]

Fellas, is this an economical, personal or passion debate?

1. If a fellaspend R3k and bought a "skadonkie", and out there there is a Pom who is willing to tripple that investment, then what is wrong with the fella making a buck? Isn't that what business is all about - buying and selling, PnP vs Checkers vs Spar vs Woolies?
2. I a fella inherits an aircooled and they are into beamers, what then do you propose they do with the ol' toppies Ghia which he bequeathed? Young fella wants to go skiing in Switzerland for a month - sells Ghia in SA, he gets R50K. Sells Ghia in UK, doubles the figure and can go skiing with his mates.
3. An ol' toppie who has created an acvw graveyard comes to his senses and realises that he is indeed sitting on a land mine. Yes, it was once upon a time a passion to restore all them gems, but as he nears retirement and his endowment ain't doin too well due to the economic climate we find ourselves in, how best do you then advice him?

Passionate as all of us might be, end of the day the economics rule. That is why we have the recession!! Money rules. Easy for us to say how much acvws and parts we want to stay on these shores, but end of the day, when the meet is over, everyone has hauled their project back home on their trailers or fellas have driven home in their show/daily drive cars, one is faced by the bills alone. No club pays for the phone bill. No club pays for school fees. No club pays the Sherriff’s office when he comes to attach ones property. Unless we are willing to buy 'at the going rate' (which unfortunately is set by the exchange rate), then we really have no right to shoot a man for exporting, or even importing.

I tend to believe that had ZA rules on import not be so stringent, we would be importing too!!!

What you are describing, for me, is about as far from what an enthusiast is that you can get.

Hopefully anyone participating on this forum is an enthusiast, because if they were, they would like to help build the SA scene, and not be blase about it being broken down by exporting. From what I've noticed these people only makes comments that will serve their own means. Enthusiasts normally what is good for the thing that they believe in, even if they gain nothing from it.

This site BTW tries to contribute by giving money back to its member and by trying to give a platform to users to benefit financially.

Because remember, according to some people, you need to spend money before you can be an enthusiast.

Try to see the bigger picture with all the role-players and then try to predict the future at current trends.

I choose not to be apathetic.

[Dutch_Diver]

The Truth:

Dutch was sent to ZA by UKVWImports to seek and aquire ACVWs for export. Unfortuanatly he has become too attached to his mission and has been recall for re-training.


Yep, This STORY is a lot of CR@P.

Tom you promised you wouldn't say anything especially if I exported parts from the UK under the radar for your new projects!! Now that's off for sure!!!!

[Dutch_Diver]

One think I can say though....is I have helped the local classic restoration industry in Cape Town! Local industry and local smaller owned companies....that's who I like to help! So the big boys, I work for one of them!!!!

[Dutch_Diver]

Oh, and one last thing on the import debate (not export). My father imported a 1957 or 58 beetle into SA in 1959! He was sent here by the dutch diary company that he worked for in Holland to set up a cheese factory. He shipped his Beetle with him. It was a wedding present from my Mum's parents (I got nothing from my parents on the first or second wedding ) After spending 4 years traveling between here and Kenya (factory was there too), he then gave the car to the local priest so that he could visit some of the older people in there homes! He didn't have a car before that and it stayed here from being imported from Holland!

I will see if my Dad has any pictures (sure he does) but the DD's have imported to SA too!

[Tom Bishop]

enthusiasm is cool but in the end of the day its all about money.

Whats not cool is after you have built a car and it is worth half the money you have spent. Its demotivating.

[Dutch_Diver]

Tom, I've stopped looking at the spend as otherwise I would always be depressed.....someone offered me R60k for Mo last week. I know exactly what you mean Tom!

[Ron&Gill]

The one thing that spoils this forum is this never ending debate about things that we can't change or have any control over...

Yup, except we do have control over it, but the folks don't know it, don't believe it and/or like it...

Let me just state for everyone to see. I am NOT of the opinion that the level of enthusiasm is determined by the amount of money you spend on your hobby.

But on the subject of money and bitching:

There is a distinct difference between a 200k ACVW and a 3k ACVW, and I have had both, and have done years of shoe-string motoring as an enthusiast when my kids were small (read: I was stone broke). I rebuilt beach buggies from nothing, and engines from crank bearings up, and brakes, and RGBs and did modifications galore, copied some and designed others using my own ideas. But back then, I would never-ever have presumed to moan and belly-ache to someone else about who he should sell his vintage/project car to. How utterly f&^%$ing presumption and arrogant. Now that I am lucky enough, and have sacrificed enough, and work hard enough, and spend enough time away from loved ones, and missed enough car shows and ACVW functions, that I can afford one, please don't F&*^%$-ing prescribe to me what I should do with my car or insinuate that, like you would [NOT], take a 150k hit because the local VW enthusiast deserves the prices to be ridiculously low. Walk the road I have walked, then we'll talk.

Bitch all you want about how prices are going up for shocks and fuel filters and the other paraphernalia you need to enthusiastically keep your jalopy on the road, I salute you! I'll even help you by giving you bits and pieces removed during my much maligned modifications. They have been going for free up until, er... now actually. Not long ago, I took a friends knackered 1600 to Dave to rebuild at my expense (I didn't have time, I flew out the next day). I'll never see that money again, nor do I care, but my mate's buggy is going like a Boeing, and I'm happy for him. I even imported a windscreen once... I say again: "I salute you, Oh Shoe-string ACVW enthusiast" and I commiserate with you that the prices are going up. But it is not my fault that they are going up, nor that of the exporter, although some will tell you it is exactly their fault, and mine.

[JamesD]

Time to stir the pot!

I dont care that prices are going up, dont get me wrong, its sucks that i'm having to fork out more and more, BUT my car's value is also going up and up. I love the fact that my bug is worth more and more everyday. I look at these people with their Yaris' and other small/big junk, in a few years, even a year or two, My ACVW car, Your ACVW car and the random bloke's (who doesn't know of this site yet) ACVW car is going to be worth more than That Yaris, or clio or even Audi A4. Hell, my moms 1998 A4 is only worth 50k and it only has 150 000km on the clock. I wouldn't part with my bug, but its one awsome feeling to know its getting worth more and more while all the other cars on the road around me are worth less and less.

An enthusiast is some one who loves working on their car, driving it and is proud of it. Money just enables then to do more and go faster and look nicer in their eyes! The guy that has had his bug for years, kept it running, drives it with pride, helps other ACVW people out on their cars and will never part with his car is a far greater enthusiast than the bloke who spends tons on his car and makes it all perfect and shows it off at shows, but will drop the car as soon as cash gets tight or garage space runs out or for what ever reason.

PS I'm just waiting for the day when my car is worth more than those piece of hummers and other SUV rubbish.

[Blitzkrieg]

There is one thing that does get me, its these people who still insist on having a signature including a fasty pic with rostyles, when they can now run steelies as intended !

Yes it gets to me too

* Coming soon - signature picture with steelies instead of Rostyles *

[Ron&Gill]

Oh, and one last thing on the import debate (not export). My father imported a 1957 or 58 beetle into SA in 1959! He was sent here by the dutch diary company that he worked for in Holland to set up a cheese factory. He shipped his Beetle with him. It was a wedding present from my Mum's parents (I got nothing from my parents on the first or second wedding ) After spending 4 years traveling between here and Kenya (factory was there too), he then gave the car to the local priest so that he could visit some of the older people in there homes! He didn't have a car before that and it stayed here from being imported from Holland!

I will see if my Dad has any pictures (sure he does) but the DD's have imported to SA too!

Dutch, this is very interesting as my school buddy's dad did the same work. Some Dutch company sent him from Holland to India, Thailand and the Philipines, and then after a short stint back in Holland, he was sent out to Ermelo to put up a dairy factory (he did the commissioning thereof) That's where I met my buddy, in 1975. His dad's name was Harco Beckering Vinkers. I wonder if your dad would know or know of him?

Even more interesting... my dad was at sea, and a shipmate of his jumped ship in India and didn't come back (late 50's I think). This came up when Harco was talking to my dad about this same-name guy, turned out he went to work in the dairy factory in India after he jumped ship... My father and Harco met because Jan and I became friends at school. He had a terrific Merklin train set....

Erm... Ermelo in the then Eastern Transvaal. I say that 'coz I can't spell Mpumalanga...

[Chris]

Somedays this world is too small.