Over heating of type 3 VW's

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retrovan
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Over heating of type 3 VW's

Post by retrovan »

Hi Guys,
Have noticed a lot of references to over heating of TYPE 3 engines
Also short engine life.

Well back in 1970 when I 1st got my Fasty (red and twin s) I blow motor after motor.
Went to my friend at Superwagen, and he told me this;-

When the type 3 was built in Germany, it was tested in Germany, no heat no dust.
When the car got to S A they found out that the air vents on the side of the car were facing the wrong way, no issue in Germany but BIG issue in SA and AUS. ( was changed in later model)

If you have the body with the vents pushing air away, then you need to fit 2 Air Scoops .
Had two on the 66 Fasty, and never overheated again.
Other issue is the Air Filter, it is important to run an OIL bath or good quality filter, as dust kills VW engines,
Look after these 2 issues and you have a friend for life.
Will post photo of old Fasty, with scoops, when I find them.
Retrovan
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Re: Over heating of type 3 VW's

Post by IMPI »

I once did the math those scoops only had the same area as about 5 of the fastys louvers. For every person I spoke to that had success with scoops there was another that didnt. The later cars with forward facing scoops had larger louvers as well
Vw themselves made some mods to the engines
Most of the 1600 parts actually have 311 partnumbers proving that they were designed for the type 3
late type threes had what is called cool tins instead of forget me not plates.
The main issue was that the type three had 43 Kw and weighed close on 900 kgs It was just not compatible with our climate.
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Re: Over heating of type 3 VW's

Post by retrovan »

GOOD Call
Wat you said is right.
However I forgot to mention that the scoops I fitted were not the :hangloose: type but a smart plastic black 6 segmented with increasing hight to the back, offering approx. 6 times the size of a pack of twenty on its face.
Not easy to explain, will have to see photo.
ONE thing........ It works.
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Re: Over heating of type 3 VW's

Post by Blitzkrieg »

IMPI,

Is it worthwhile fitting those cool tins to a 1600 Type 3 engine, would it help to run a little better??

http://www.type2.com/rvanness/kooltin.htm
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Re: Over heating of type 3 VW's

Post by retrovan »

Hi Blitz,
Here is some info you may like to see.
Not my own work, but good info.

You may want to take after market cool tins and flaten them, copy the shape onto a sheet of copper, cut out to shape, bend, and fit, this is the best you can do. AND look at the shape of your side fins.

""""""""Type 3 Air Deflector (Cool Tin) Installation
by Ron Van Ness
August 11, 1999
When I was deciding on the best parts to use on my relatively stock 1600 engine, I heard that the air deflector tinware found stock on VW Type 3 engines would keep the cylinders cooler. The stock Type 1 engine air deflectors clip on the head studs between the cylinders, diverting the downward flow of cooling air from the fan shroud across the cylinder fins (without any deflectors, the engine would overheat very quickly, hence all the dire warnings in the service manuals!). The Type 3 air deflectors (or "Cool Tin" as they are called by aftermarket parts suppliers) surround the lower half of the cylinders to provide better, more even circulation of cooling air. Because of the relatively more restricted engine compartment design of the Type 3, such tinware innovation was necessary to keep the engine temperatures down. Such air deflectors are also similar in design to those found on the larger displacement Type IV bus engines. Here's a photo of the Type 3 tin being installed:



When shopping for "Cool Tin" I found that the aftermarket tin, though appearing like the original Type 3 tin, was made from thinner gauge sheet metal and was less rigid than I hoped. I bought a pair of used OEM VW Type 3 tin (pictured) from Volks-motorsports that I found to be of better quality.

A problem often cited when using Type 3 air deflectors is that they tend to pop off the studs, falling away from the cylinders, defeating their purpose. To avoid this, secure the tin via wires or rods through the center wedge, and tie these to the upper studs to keep the tin securely against the cylinders, as Bob Hoover outlines in his Sermons CD. I accomplished this with two stainless steel wires as pictured below:



My installation also included some additional stainless wires laced through tiny holes I drilled on the outboard clips that grip the deflectors to the studs. With the cylinders and tin in place, I twisted this wire so that the clips were forced against the studs, then cut off the excess wire. In retrospect, I think these additional wires were overkill. If you install this tinware, only the center wires are necessary.





Installation of the Type 3 air deflector tin requires clearancing the lower tinware that protects the pushrod tubes and serves as a plenum to discard the heated air. Clearancing entails hammering out the section of tin that conflicts with the bulges in the Type 3 deflector while maintaining a snug fit between the tin when the pieces are assembled.

After over 25,000 miles on the rebuild I can comment on temperatures, but due to confounding variables, I don't have enough data to indicate how much or if my engine has benefited from the Type 3 air deflectors. My engine tends to run hot, and I see a consistent maximum of 350 degrees on the cylinder head temperature gauge during highway runs, with a maximum oil temperature of around 240 on 90 degree days, traveling for 1/2 hour+ on the highway at 63-65 mph. With my auxiliary oil cooler I've reduced the oil temperature some, but the CHT remains the same. This is with a 7:1 compression ratio.

Recently I experimented by removing the cylinders shims to raise the CR near the 8:1 mark, noting how much higher the temperatures reached and if there would be a power increase. After retarding the timing and switching to premium to avoid pinging, I'm now seeing a max. CHT of 400-425 degrees (a 50-75 deg. increase) with a corresponding increase in oil temperature of 10 degrees. Clearly, either with a 7:1 or 8:1 CR, the bus is running too hot. I've not yet experimented measuring temperatures after swapping the Type 3 air deflectors for the stock Type 1 deflectors, so I can't assess how much advantage there is to using the Type 3 tin.

On an interesting side note, with the CR of 7:1 even if I added timing advance and ran regular gas, I never heard pinging, but with the 8:1 of course, it's imperative to retard the timing. After factoring in the timing retard and premium gas, there was absolutely no net gain in power by going to the 8:1 CR, measured by the tried and true "seat of pants" method. Conclusion: Whatever minute power gains if any that can be made by raising CR are not worth it. CC your heads, install those CR shims and keep the temperatures and gas bills down! """"""""

Hope it helps

:?
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Re: Over heating of type 3 VW's

Post by Variant »

Very interesting topic. We have operated a Squareback as a daily driver since 1969 and what follows needs to be understood in that context. Add to that my experience operating a Notchback for the past two years:

Many highly respected VW people have very bad things to say about the type 3 cooling system. I disagree - it works just fine - provided it, as well as the rest of the engine, is maintained properly.

Lets start with the air intakes: On the Fastback & Squareback there are diagonal ribs on the rear fenders while on the Notchback the intakes are below the rear window. Aerodynamically both are situated in an area of increasing static pressure while the car moves forwards. That will help get some air into the vents. I do not believe that the body will 'push' air away. Also I have yet to notice any significant difference in operating temperature between these two arrangements. As for the ribs pointing the wrong way - they are similar to the NACA vents found on the fuselage and underneath the wings of many aeroplanes which are designed to prevent ice accumulation in adverse operating conditions. Remember - the air doesn't just happen to flow in there while the car moves along - it gets sucked in by a fan, very similar to the centrifugal compressor on early jet engines, that moves 580 litres of air per second at 3800 rpm. Adding scoops won't make any significant diference to the amount of air delivered by the fan. Rather, it is imperative that the air intake passages are kept clear of obstructions such as leaves - especially on the Notchback, and the water drain flaps must be checked for correct operation regularly. Many people don't even know about these - look underneath the rear fenders in the middle of the engine bay - on each side you'll see a spring loaded, square flap. Open them carefully and remove all the crud inside then pour some water into the vents at the top and watch it run out through the flaps. If water runs out elsewhere your ducts are most likely rusted out and needs to be repaired. If any of the flaps are missing or not closing properly, you'll be recycling hot air from the bottom of the engine bay.

Next have a look at the large rubber bellows connecting the body ducts to the engine. It must be intact and securely attached at both ends. Any cracks will result in hot air from around the exhaust being recycled. The same goes for the rubber piece between the pre-heater box and the air cleaner. Also ensure the the air control flaps in the pre-heater box are set correctly for the ambient condidtions.

Pay attention to the gaskets between the air cleaner and the carburettors - any leakage here will cause a lean mixture and an increase in operating temperature. Ditto for all the other gaskets in the carburettors as well as between the carbs/manifolds/heads. Also check the rubber hoses connecting the balance line to the manifolds as as well as the hose to the vacuum modulator if AT - these are often a source of air in-leakage as they get cooked over time. I use a heat resistant 8mm silicone vacuum hose - available from 'Rubber Products & Mouldings' in Cape Town for this application.

Ensure that the ignition timing is set correctly and that the vacuum advance is operating properly since retarded timing will make the engine run too hot.

Also ensure that all the engine tinware - including the cover over the generator belt is securely installed and that the air ducts between the fan housing and the heat exchangers are connected - these seem to provide some air to cool the heat exchangers even when the heaters are not being used. Blocking the outlets on the fan housing will not improve the efficiency of the cooling system. I experienced this firsthand many years ago on a trip from George to Cape Town when I lost an air duct somewhere along the way and blocked off the fan housing with some rolled-up newspaper. When I stopped at Swellendam after travelling from Mossel Bay at mostly 70mph I could rest my hand comfortably on the aircleaner and tinware above the left hand side of the engine while I could not bring it closer than about 10 cm to anything on the right hand side where the duct had fallen off. Using J tubes rather than the proper heat exchangers will probably have a similar effect.

Use the correct viscosity oil - either SAE 30 (if you can still find some...) or 20W50 will do and make sure that there is enough of it in the engine.

Clean all the crud off the engine periodically. I take the car to a place that does chassis cleaning before every maintenance service to have the transmission area & bottom of the engine - especially inside the tinware around the push rod tubes and in between the fins on the cylinders cleaned. It makes for a much more pleasant job servicing the engine and keeping the cylinders & heads clean ensures proper cooling.

In 235 000 miles - spread over two engines, we have never experienced any overheating, never cracked a head nor pulled a stud. The only major engine trouble we have ever had was a dropped valve on the original engine after about 100 000 miles. The damage was repaired and that engine soldiered on until about 116 000 mles at which point we were advised that a recon subassembly was going to be more economical than overhauling the original motor. Much depands on how you drive the car. This squareback has automatic transmission and spent most of its early life during the days of petrol restrictions and an 80km/h speed limit. Even after that was lifted in the early eighties, it was rarely driven faster than 70mph and my dad understood that since the engine was air cooled one needs to go easy on it during very hot weather. He also changed the oil more frequently than specified.

I think VWSA created much trouble for themselves through their advertising campaigns in the 60's & 70's which gave the impression that the VW will put up with any kind of abuse - which it often received - for a while anyway... We are now stuck with that legacy...
Last edited by Variant on Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Over heating of type 3 VW's

Post by Drusky »

Adriaan, thanks for that info. I found it fascinating. I imagine the guys doing the chassis cleaning are carefull not to use the high pressure jet on your rubbers and distributor.
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Re: Over heating of type 3 VW's

Post by Variant »

Drusky wrote:Adriaan, thanks for that info. I found it fascinating. I imagine the guys doing the chassis cleaning are carefull not to use the high pressure jet on your rubbers and distributor.
The guy doing the cleaning would be me :) And only use an ordinary garden hose and some Prepsol for the top.
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