Notchback brake upgrade

[Variant]

Greetings everyone

The time has come to upgrade my '69 Notch's brakes to someting that will actually stop the car in a reasonable distance and mostly straight line. Getting the brakes to work properly has been an ongoing battle for as long as I've owned the car and all the issues boil down to the fact that by now just about every T3 brake drum out there is either out of round or too thin from being machined too many times. (Or both... ) This is compounded by the fact that mid '68 to '69 T3 front drums were unique to VWSA. AFAIK they were cast at a foundary in PE which means that they have been NLA for ages now. Replacement 5x205 rear drums are still available from EMPI for mega $$ but wouldn't help much if one can't obtain decent replacement front drums. Other than that, just about everything else on the current system can be - and has been - overhauled and made serviceable again.

So, being a certifiable old-school, stock, numbers correct type guy, I have embarked on upgrading the brakes and related hardware to the same spec as my '69 Squareback Auto. In other words, 4x130 disc/drum and tandem master cylinder. On the Square this system has proven to be very reliable and low maintenance. Best of all - replacement parts are readily available at reasonable cost.

The project has progressed from the planning on paper stage to sourcing and refurbishing of components and the actual conversion will start once all the bits & pieces are ready. I've made a list of all the parts required and will be keeping track of the expenses related to each item - will post this here as soon as all the parts are ready. Pictures of the parts & process will also follow.

[jolas]

Looking forward to the pics - good luck with this project

[retrovan]

Greetings everyone
........ I've made a list of all the parts required and will be keeping track of the expenses related to each item - will post this here as soon as all the parts are ready. Pictures of the parts & process will also follow.

Hi Adriaan,
The parts you sent me were great, thanks,
I am waiting for your list as above as This is what i also need, with the power of 2000 cc I THINK I need brakes.
Please let me know that I may get my set as well
Thanks.....unstopable...
Herman

[Simon]

good luck Adriaan! keen to see it all come together. No doubt the theory will be used in more type threes once you've tackled it..

[Variant]

Righty...

First order of business was to make a list of all the parts required as well as the technical data for overhauling the items that are specific to the T3 and have become NLA. This was done using original VAG parts lists and workshop manuals. I'm hoping to have all the overhauled parts back next week and then I'll post the parts list with prices and sources here.

Next task was to find the parts... So far 6 donor cars are involved: 4x Squareback 1600L Auto's, 1x 411L Sedan & 1x 412LE Sedan Auto. Note that the correct 4x130 disc/drum setup & tandem master cylinder was only available on '69 T3 automatics. That makes the master cylinder and steering knuckles rather hard to find. Most of these parts have been gathering dust for years and were badly in need of overhaul - an adventure in itself. More about that as we go along...

Attached is a pic of the overhauled tandem master cylinder, brake light wiring harness, brake fluid reservoir and associated plumbing. Still missing is the proper blue braided rubber hose to connect the whole lot together. The master cylinder has been resleeved and all seals renewed. The seal kit is made by Euroseal, p/n RK 2.19.04 and seems to be readily available and the work was done by Brake Super Service, Salt River CT. I highly reccommend them for all brake work.

[Blitzkrieg]

I intend doing this too sometime, have most of the donor parts, that took some scratching and asking around. Goldwagen sells a 7mm black hose that's almost exactly the same as the blue OG German hose, looks and feels the same. I've used that for my dual circuit master cylinder conversion.

[calooker]

If you need new 4x130 discs I can help, R680 each

[Junior]

Im looking for that metal elbow that comes out of the intake of the master cylinder. Do you know where I could find 1 or 2?

[retrovan]

Righty...
. So far 6 donor cars are involved: 4x Squareback 1600L Auto's, 1x 411L Sedan & 1x 412LE Sedan Auto. .

Sorry do not get the 4 x Squareback's.......... are you making me a set as well, I wanted to say, what they keep saying about you, .. is not true.... Thanks Adriaan.

[Variant]

Im looking for that metal elbow that comes out of the intake of the master cylinder. Do you know where I could find 1 or 2?

I had those custom made to replace the plastic pipes which tend to get brittle with age. Don't have any surplus, sorry.

[Variant]

Righty...
. So far 6 donor cars are involved: 4x Squareback 1600L Auto's, 1x 411L Sedan & 1x 412LE Sedan Auto. .

Sorry do not get the 4 x Squareback's.......... are you making me a set as well, I wanted to say, what they keep saying about you, .. is not true.... Thanks Adriaan.

Don't care two hoots what people say about me... Have I mentioned that I'm a perfectionist... 4 Squares because no single one of them had all the bits that IMHO could be considered salvageable.

[retrovan]

Don't care two hoots what people say about me... Have I mentioned that I'm a perfectionist... 4 Squares because no single one of them had all the bits that IMHO could be considered salvageable.

Just pulling your leg, know you are a perfectionist now even the "4x" make sense,cannot wait for your full posting on these brakes.
Thanks

[Variant]

I'm so stoked....

Yesterday I received the last of the new parts I've ordered. These have come from EMPI in the States via Volkspares, JHB. Ordering was very easy as the EMPI catalogue lists the original VW part numbers for most of their standard replacement parts so it was a matter of looking up the parts I needed in the VAG parts list and then checking if EMPI listed it. Volkspares took care of the rest.

The discs and drums were made in Brazil and appear to be properly cast and neatly machined. I spent an hour carefully measuring them and their dimensions conform to the tolerances for new parts as stated in the VAG workshop manuals. I have been warned that the drums in particular can sometimes be slightly oval but these appear to be good. Probably a good idea to have a brake shop check them on the lathe when I have the brake shoes made up.

The calipers were made in China and appear to be rather cheap copies of the original ATE's... The ATE caliper has a disc deflection compensator built into each piston which takes care of any lateral movement of the brake disc under extreme operating conditions. This prevents the pedal travel from increasing next time the brakes are applied. The EMPI caliper has nothing like this. Also the ATE has a very sturdy retaining spring to press the pads firmly against the pistons while the EMPI has two very fiddly looking springs that look like paper clips bent open... I think some modification would be needed. I also don't like the look of the pads that were supplied with the calipers so I'll be changing those for a set of ATE's of Ferodo's. Then to my mild suprise - and annoyance - I discovered this morning that said ATE D101 or Ferodo FDB3 pads have become almost extinct. Hopefully the old guy, who seems to know everything, at my friendly spares shop will be able to find me a few sets.

Should be getting the refurbished wheel rims back next week. The steering knuckles, splash shields and rear wheel hubs went for sandblasting on Friday so they too should be ready soon. That leaves me with a Ziploc bag full of rusty bolts and nuts and I'm thinking of having them cadmium plated. Anyone done this before?

[retrovan]

Hi Adriaan,
Will these drums fit on as the std one's on the type 3, as is, with std brake shoes.??
Do the disks fit on to , which stub axles...? type 3, type 4 or beetle or must one be made up ?
Herman

[Variant]

Hi Adriaan,
Will these drums fit on as the std one's on the type 3, as is, with std brake shoes.??
Do the disks fit on to , which stub axles...? type 3, type 4 or beetle or must one be made up ?
Herman

The new drums are separate from the wheel hubs which still fit over the splines on the rear wheel shafts in the usual manner. Will post a pic of the hubs as soon as they come back from sandblasting. The rest of the rear brake hardware remained unchanged on all T3 models from '66 - ' 69. I was also concerned that stuff like the rear wheel bearing housings, wheel shafts, etc may have to be changed but after a thorough check of all the VAG technical publications at my disposal as well as the fact that I have recently seen an example of this conversion done to a '68 Squareback I'd say that these drums will fit. Of course one would have to get the rear brake shoes relined to match the inner diameter of the new drums.

The steering knuckles - or stub axles as you call them, are specific to the T3 and in SA were only used on '69 automatics. You'll have to find a donor car somewhere as I have never seen them listed in any aftermarket VW parts catalugue. Will also post a pic of mine as soon as they come back. New front wheel bearings will certainly be needed, use SKF 108 or equivalent. Don't use the grease supplied with the SKF kit. Rather use Castrol BNS which is a bentonite clay based grease specially formulated for the high temperatures found in front wheel bearings fitted to cars with disc brakes. Some years ago I had a SKF front wheel bearing fail as result of lack of lubrication very soon after replacing it, having packed it with the grease included in the kit. Since then I have been using Castrol BNS for all wheel bearings and have never had any failures again. Just don't ever mix BNS with any other grease as it is not compatible and the rotating bits will get stuck rather abruptly.