Why I love type 4 engines

[Muderick]

7 weeks ago, I fitted a 1600 cc type 1 beetle engine into my 72 cross over bay. Why? Well it was the quickest motor to fit, as I needed this bus to help Gus the Empi bus transport stuff to and from Bug Jam.

I fitted a new Bosch alternator and 36HP fan shroud I had on my shelf for a few years, and also added one of FFR's Serpentine belt set ups, a pair of Weber 36IDF carbs, an MSD billet dizzy, MSD Blaster 2 coil and leads and MSD 6A ingintion control.

The gasses were sucked out with a new EMPI 4 tip GT bus exhaust.

I did not expect much from this engine, but boy does she go!! Dave Rowley sold me this motor about 6 years ago for peanuts and when I bought it, it had never been opened, nor machined. The same applies now..

It was one of those diamonds you find every now and then, that just defy common sense, in how good, reliable and fast it is.

When I drive my 72 bus, I unknowingly start smiling at how well she goes and amazing she sounds. That unmistaken deep burble from the exhaust and gargling whoosh from the IDF's when called on to perform.... Im sure you okes know what I mean. She pulls away nice in 1st, 2nd is better, and then in 3rd, she really pulls the bus along, with quite long legs from the box... I have taken her to 140KPH with ease, and she can cruise in traffic anywhere from 100 - 120 kph, without the engine or box screaming.

I know she will pull better later today when I collect her from Berg Motors... they are fitting a new clutch kit, German main seal, new electronic fuel pump and block off plate, new carb and linkage return springs. We also fitted new drag links, all 4 ball joints, all new tie rods, wheel bearings in front, new CV boots and new Gabriel gas shocks in the rear...

Im sure she will drive even better today....

But one things for sure... I will never be as rest assured as when im driving my bus with a 2l type 4 as motivation.

Muds

Some more type 4 info added below...

[fig]

Where can one get the upright conversion from?

IMPI does a well engineered conversion. Vdubtech also does an upright cooled type4, speak to Bugger.

[Muderick]

Like Fig says Dixon... try Impi... you can see one of his motors in this post - Pg 1, last engine photo.

Muds

[4agedub]

I've always liked the type 4 engines, availability of spares and the prices made me move to type 1.

All my dad's first race cars had type 4. Here's some pics and history of them.

1982. Type 4 2,4lt. Std 2lt crank with 103mm chev v8 pistons and mageriz deutz barrels. The carbs were twin 40dcoe's

z1.jpg

z2.jpg

1990. Type 4 2,4lt. Std 2lt crank with 103mm chev v8 pistons and mageriz deutz barrels. The carbs were twin 48ida's

Drags Brandkop.jpg

1994. Type 4 2,9lt. Stroker full circle crank with 103mm chev v8 pistons and mageriz deutz barrels and dry sump. The carbs were twin 48ida's and ran on methanol.
The crank boke and was then replaced with a scat 82mm

2.jpg

[Muderick]

I love those right turn aero foils on your dads bug!!

Thanks ... great post.

[The Gymkhana Fanatic]

Okay....so educate me please. What engine do I have? Its a 1977 Bay Window 2.0...is this a type 4?

[Tony Z]

yes it is

[62vwbeetle]

Woohoo got me a type 4 today any suggestions on rebuild ideas. Wouldn't mind a displacement upgrade mild cam and some heD work

[Tony Z]

Woohoo got me a type 4 today any suggestions on rebuild ideas. Wouldn't mind a displacement upgrade mild cam and some heD work

with the right exhaust and carbs it should be fairly good in stock form. But headwork and a cam upgrade wouldnt hurt.

[62vwbeetle]

Had so many discussions today running from build a 2,7 to do it stock and carb and pipes only. The bottom line is that it is a complete rebuild job no matter which way I go. And it seems the price differential will run at about 10k difference from 70 hp to over 130

[Muderick]

OK... where is it going into? Will help a lot.

Also, when you say increasing displacement (only done by going bigger on bore and or stroke) it will cost you a bit for either the bigger crank and or piston kit. Do some headwork, Weber or Dellorto Down draughts in 40-44 mm size, higher revving valve springs (important as stock T4 motors are not used or dont like high revs), Ratio rockers, bigger valves, new performance ignition system, better clutch kit, good exhaust... well basically the list can be endless... and in my opinion way more than R10 difference from stock rebuild.

If you stay stock... like Tony Z says bigger carbs.. Weber or Dellorto 36's would be sufficient, 009 or 2.1 dizzy, good extraction exhaust, and you would be surprised how good it goes... this is if you are starting off from a good engine base...

In stock 2l form the T4 engine had enough low end grunt in my white bus, and mated with the IRS rear, I literally would be able to drive from CT to George car show in 4th gear.... unless some genius decided to go at 60- kph in front of me..

Muds

Muds

[62vwbeetle]

I hear u - but the point of departure is total rebuild new pistons sleeves etc etc so if I am buying expensive pistons and sleeves for a 2 l then I may as well go to 2.7 - hardly any difference - the cost comes in the crank and a little machining .

All the work , the balancing , heads, carbs (have 3 spare sets hiding in the study, 34's 36's and 40's) and ignition are a given - either way - so the question boils down to is it worth the additional 10K to go to 2.7 , if I look at the parts list for my 1776 type 1 build, which included new big valve heads , cb crank, cams, flywheel, race balancing and a rather expensive oil cooling system, Ignition upgrade, new dual 40's + bill bigger than the cost of my entire Porsche and the poor fun to power ratio I should've just opted for the biggest displacement to start with , remember there is no replacement for displacement

[Tony Z]

True, there is no replacement for displacement, but there is a lot to be said to volumetric efficiency.

A question... what pistons and barrels are you planning on running?

I too am wondering about this extra 10K cost. Unless you are finding cheap second hand parts, I am failing to see how you will get this right. Just buying and getting a new crank into SA will cost 10K

Remember, you will need a custom cooling system to fit the T4 into a beetle, unless you want it to look like a hack job
And then you'll need that expensive oil cooling system which you mention is needed for the 1776 (which it isnt, but anyway).
Everything that you list as needed for the 1776 is new. Seriously though, you should be looking at that same list for the 2.7.

I am not trying to deter you in any way, I am just trying to help you realise that even though T4 looks like a cheaper option, it seldomly is.
As I said, I am hoping to put in a T4 in my next project, and I am aware about the costs involved.

[Muderick]

Hey Brendon... Im sure you know what it costed you to build your 1776, and the work involved. If you know you can do the 2.7l Type 4 engine for R10k more, then go for it. It will be one helluva ride... just ask Splitfan!!!

My appreciation for the Type 4 motor is solely based on how much more grunt you get from it in stock form ie: 70 hp or 51kw.

Taking it one step further and making it push out 100 HP or 73kw, is still infinitely cheaper and more reliable than doing it with a type1 based engine. Period.
This said, it is evident that there is no real substitute than using a Type 4 engine in stock or modified form for either your bus or as replacement engine in your beetle.
Type 4 engines are also just more reliable than any other ACVW lump. The case is better and stronger (aluminium alloy), the cooling is better, houses more oil, head design also cools motor quicker, almost never runs a bearing, etc etc... Its the ultimate ACVW engine to do long distances with. Period.

How often do you see guys with R50 k + T1 engines being able to drive their cars long distances, in a hurry, on a daily basis?
Our club, has had many modified engines, built by the best of them, that were great at short bursts and distances. Long road.... then they decide not to use their big engined cars... and come with a stocker or hitch a ride... LOL!

Muds

[Tony Z]

How often do you see guys with R50 k + T1 engines being able to drive their cars long distances, in a hurry, on a daily basis?
Our club, has had many modified engines, built by the best of them, that were great at short bursts and distances. Long road.... then they decide not to use their big engined cars... and come with a stocker or hitch a ride... LOL!

Muds

While i do agree with what you say, I do have to say that your above statement is a little biased and not really fair.
A lot of these engines are designed as a non-daily driver.
Heck, if i wanted to drive my 2332 to jhb and back in a weekend I woudltn have tried to get close to the 200hp mark with it. I would have designed and built it to get about 140hp out of it. Plenty torque, all out of steam by 5000rpm.
Your statement is like saying that a F1 engine is shit because you cant drive it from one track to another, you have to truck it.
Application specific.
Ron's 2276 was built for cruising and thats what it does reliably without effort. Application....

I did about 40 000km with a 75hp T1 engine until I sucked a rag into the fan housing and ended up breaking the case and cam. This engine was stock internally and the only mods I made were to improve the volumetric efficiency - like I did to Stutz bus a few weeks ago. And guess what? Same power as your stock T4 you mention.

Take a T4, stick a 330deg cam in it, bump up the CR to 10:1 and try to ring every HP out of it that you can for R50K and see if you can drive it to JHB and back. No chance. Just like a T1
There is a reason Remmele has a 3.1 liter engine for sale of the shelf with 265hp, when his own 3.1 makes around 340hp NA. The off the shelf engine is built as a daily driver, while his engine is a race track engine. Application.