my 1600 tp beetle engine rebuild and advice

[vlekki]

I have been avoiding posting this for a while now, but after seeing how some people got ripped off on Cyndi (or Mark) Kritzingers' conversion thread.

the first image I posted is my invoice from Gasket Centre in Three Rivers, Vereeniging. (I have never had such good service from a spares shop before), is a total of R1767.00
for Mahle mains, mahle cam bearings, femo big ends, femo rings, full sabo gasket set and oil pump.

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the second is from Helmut spares in Vereeniging for a camshaft end cap @ R20 and a flywheel gland nut @ R295.

I will post some pictures of the engine soon.

all these parts came in at around R2000 and I didn't even try to hunt down the cheapest place.

the heads recon should cost around R2000 at a place in Vereeniging called Henters or something(will confirm when I get there).

and that is it for the parts. theres an old guy just outside Vereeniging called Oom Gert, he will be doing all the work for me just because it keeps him busy(I will pay him fairly though )

[Edmond]

Did i see R600 for a set of Main Bearings, Masterparts in CT sell them at R260 ex vat

[vlekki]

the first price I got from Robbie was also I think R280, but my casing had to be ground to maximum oversize

[Tony Z]

2K for the bearings and pump
2K for heads which can be refurbished (5K to 6K for new possibly?)
line bore 1K
grind/straighten crank ??
refurb rods ??
New barrels and pistons ??
new cam followers ??
New valve springs ?? (this wont be a normal option for the heads)
resize thrust bearing to fit case ??
time spent scrubbing case of all machining shavings/debris ??
time spent properly assembling the engine, setting end float to exactly what it needs to be, not close but exact, gland nut torqued properly (how many people have a Torque wrench for this? ), lapping barrels instead of using copper washers, gapping rings properly (buying another set if needed)... how many of you have actually set the cam endfloat? It doesnt take long, but it takes time.
Clutch and pressure plate - sure this isnt exactly part of an engine rebuild, but seriously, why save +/-R800 now when everything else is new.

I dont want to argue, but you have 5K spent without all the machining done or even opening the case. How on earth do you get a proper recon for 7K?
Yes, I too have rebuilt my own engines on a shoestring budget, spending less than 2K and then slapping it all together again and having the engine last for ages. But seriously speaking, a proper rebuild will cost at least 10 to 12K, if not more - I am a bit out of touch with prices at the moment.

[JamesD]

We built the Formula Vee engine for a lot more than that and we built it ourselves! The pots, pistons and heads we got from Impi at what I thought was a good price. The Cam was also reasonable. The flywheel, seals, crank, oil pump, Chome moly push rods, SS valves, mini deep sump, internal baffles and and and was from VS or other places. We had a case and some single port stuff. It had to be balanced and the pots machined. I am pretty sure we came near or over 20k and that was with us doing the labour.

Then again we have a 1300 single port that revs to 6000 easily on standard valve springs(as per regs), can pull like anything, has good oil pressure even under high speed prolonged cornering.

I am pretty sure you can do a reasonable to good rebuild for 6k or 7k depending on what parts you need. But it does mean you building it.

[vlekki]

exactly my point JamesD.

Tony Z- we all dream about that perfect engine case you are describing. And man all those branded boxes to throw away when you're done spending all your money on fancy new parts to replace the old parts that came out of a RUNNING engine. That is what is happening here; I did 8000km with this engine in the 2months before I heard a humming sound and decided it's rebuild time.
This is what I understand from Marks' thread. He has a running Type1 engine that was rebuilt poorly? why would it cost R10 000 to properly rebuild a running engine?

my engine will be done by the end of this month and I will bet you those refurbished heads(not new ones), that my old heads will still keep my valves and rockers in place just like your new heads do.
BTW I like your 2.3 and I love all the little details on your bug. but this is a rebuild to keep something running that someone else loves without a R20k engine budget.

[Tony Z]

Vlekki

Just to answer your question and to go back to my comments....
You mention 5K worth of work and parts which didnt include any machine work to include a line bore and a crank regrind. The case does get pounded out over time and the center bearing carrier becomes oval or bigger than it should be. the crank itself also wears down and changes shape and needs grinding.
It is also advisable to cut the thrust surface if it is worn, then you need to cut down the bearing to match.
This isnt a once off, or occasional happening. This happens almost with every well used engine.
Cam followers wear and need replacing too
heads might be nicely cracked and/or have spark plugs stripped. These are often repaired with a plug insert. While this is fine, I have never seen a plug insert that has been smoothed and ground off from the chamber side. The devil is in the details buddy.
If the barrels are nicely polished, chances are they are oversized. So to get this right, they need to be honed to the next size, new pistons sourced to match along with the correct rings. Or you can buy a new piston and cylinder set.

I am not saying a rebuild cant be done for less than 8K, I am saying that you shouldnt be blind to the fact that it can easily amount to much more if you dont want to take shortcuts. Look how many 6K engines are for sale on gumtree and look at the reliability of those.

Just because an engine is running doesnt mean you can re-use all the parts. And even if you can reuse them all, you can easily throw 8K at machining and parts. Again it depends what you need, want or are willing to pay. But there is a difference between just doing it and doing it right.
A cheap build might last 50km, it might last 50 000km, who knows. A proper build will be more expensive, but should be nearly as good as new.

[vlekki]

tony

I'm definitely not arguing with your facts or knowledge.

my case is just about gone, if you look at the parts I bought you would see the mains are .030/100. i'm really not sure but I think I won't be able to get bigger mains than that.
I just can't justify spending a load of money on machining a case that won't last me any more than 1 year(with or without machining)?

this is the case with the majority of beetle engines out there. The next time I build an engine for this beetle it will be done right and planned ahead(saving for a good casing).

when someone asks me for advice on rebuilding one of these, I just assume that their engine is in a similar condition to mine and base my answers on the above. Or you can ask them how much money they want to spend.(It's almost pointless for the first question to be about what they want their engine to do)
when they ask me for advice on building a rotary, I ask them what they want to do with it because I can rebuild a reliable rotary for R10 000 and a drag motor for R50 000. Because I know the general condition of available used parts and what these parts are capable of regarding reliability of the engine they go into.

I may have been wrong to assume the condition of the engine as OK, but I haven't stripped one engine where both heads had to be replaced with new ones just in order to make it run reliably again.

[Tony Z]

If I am not mistaken, this thread was started because of people getting ripped off and then detailed the basics for a rebuild of around 5 or 6K
It then went the route of (me) saying that a proper rebuild should cost o fair bit more
now it has gone back to the point where you are saying that your rebuild only needs to last a year.

It seems we are talking about different things here.

As you say, your case is toast and you dont want to spend the money to fix it. So you are building a cheap engine to last a year.
This is all well and fine. Your engine, your car, your money, your choice.
As i said above, I too built an engine for 2K for myself because I didnt have a cent to spare. It lasted about 5000km and was a complete riot, but I knew it wouldnt last long. My choice and I didnt condemn the engine for being unreliable when it was built with a "built-in-time-tomb".

Now put yourself in someone elses shoes.... what if you bought an engine built according to your spec above which was advertised for 6K as a reconditioned engine?
would you not be pissed when it fails after a year?
After you have bought and killed the second engine (lets say R12K in 2 years) and you are left with nothing, wouldnt it have been cheaper to buy a 15K engine in the first place which still works?
How many people are placed in this situation? Plenty.
One guy charges 6K for an engine and has plenty business, none if which will ever return (to spend money again anyway) another guy has very little business, charges 15 to 20K for an engine and has a good name with happy customers. (I wonder which one of the two gives the beetle a reputation as being unreliable?)
Two totally different scenarios.

Just throwing my thoughts out there....

[vlekki]

Sorry this thread was actually supposed to be about my engine rebuild and what it is costing me and some advice I need about that. which is why I only posted a link on Marks thread so that he (and anyone else interested) can see what I am paying and doing and the happy/miserable driving trips after.

I want the perfect go anywhere anytime 55Hp engine in my beetle, though I didn't have that in the last 25000km, I still went anywhere anytime just not without the occasional roadside repairable breakdown. the breakdowns I had - points burning, blown fuse after installing new points and pinching the wire under the dizzy cap, blown fuse after coil fell out of its bracket, fuse falling out and I didn't realize till after the tow home and lots of front wheel bearings until I realised that I was installing them wrong.

so if you have a casing worth spending the money on(say this casing can be reused two or three times after this build)then give it all the machining and new parts you can afford?
But if you know this casing is good now, but won't be good anymore when the rebuild bell rings again. (this is my situation and about 60% of all others I have seen myself).
then what do you do?

[Tony Z]

Sorry this thread was actually supposed to be about my engine rebuild and what it is costing me and some advice I need about that. which is why I only posted a link on Marks thread so that he (and anyone else interested) can see what I am paying and doing and the happy/miserable driving trips after.

Sorry my mistake. When you mentioned Marks thread, I assumed you were continuing your comments from there in another thread (this one).