Bad Quality Restoration

[ST Man]

Wiring smalls
The blinker unit burned out so I found this. The flasher relay is hanging loose and earthing in the chassis. When I removed unit second wire is just pressed into connector. First flasher lasted 1 week. second unit after insulating unit and installing properly still working.

[ST Man]

Brakes and dust/grease seals
As mentioned before I didn't drive to Kamp out and trailered car due to brake noise from grease seals scraping against brake springs when they became hot. I supplied new grease seals that was never fitted so this means that suspension grease was never cleaned out on inner front bearing, or the removed it and refitted it badly.
In short old steel seals were left in bus and new seals sent back with bus in bags.
I asked that front brake cylinders be rebuild as at the time I could not find new units. I was under impression that they were rebuild but when they started leaking I found this. The brake lines were not installed correctly that caused the brake line being squashed and broken. I received bus with very bad brakes that could not stop down a hill. Jacques told me afterwards when I complained they never rebuild these units and only replace them.
Note damage on brake line connecting top and bottom cylinder

[acpaterson]

Well that really does prove that money can't buy you happiness, and unless you do things yourself you cannot guarantee a decent job, no matter how much you spend on it. Sorry Jacques, with respect, there's nothing you can say that justify's this workmanship for that amount of money spent.

Time management issues, lack of quality control, lack of respect for your customers, and definitely a lack of respect in your and your staff's workmanship. It seems your workload is overwhelming you, and as such your quality or workmanship is suffering. It's obvious that doing a complete restoration on something the size of a Splitty is not a quick and easy job, and shouldn't be rushed either. While I was very impressed with other busses on your FB page and website, that is the bigger picture, these pics however tell a very different story.

Leon, as a matter of interest, did you conduct due diligence and inspect other completed busses in detail before you got into a contract? if so, did they also look like this in finished form?

As Barry says, sad to see. Good luck Leon, just keep at it, I'm sure you'll get her finished to your satisfaction.

[Derek]

Shocking pics - what's up with that vinyl work? It beggars belief that such a rare kombi could have been "restored" like this...I'm sure there are people on this forum who would have lovingly restored this Samba at actual cost price just to have the satisfaction of bringing it back to life and to have had the rare opportunity to have worked on a Samba...

[jolas]

Derek, are you taking the piss, or stirring the pot or what ? It's obvious that you have "beef" with Jacques. Are your busses lovingly restored to pristine condition with their Ford and Golf motors, all vinyl in tip top condition and all the rest ? No, I don't think there is anyone on this forum who would undertake such a job at cost - or at all... Perhaps I'm wrong ...
No offence man, but your above statement clearly shows you are having a "go" at Jacques (again). If this carries on then this thread will end up getting locked. Give Jacques a chance to repond in detail as he said stated he would.

[Derek]

Paul, I have never claimed that I restore my kombi's to pristine condition, as I rent them out on a daily basis. I fit modern water-coooled engines in order to make them as reliable as possible and reduce the risk of breakdowns and I'm quite open about that. I'm not in the commercial restoration business - I'm in the camper rental business...

But let's not make this thread about me or my differences with Jacques, as this thread is about somebody else's issues with him and his workmanship. It is a bit inconvenient that he is away at the time that this issue has been made so public, but I'm sure he will respond in full upon his return - although I'm sure most will agree that a picture speaks a thousand words...

[ST Man]

Hi to all
Ok so here is some details on the paint. As mentioned the paint was not polished in some areas and other areas over polished. I have to zoom images to get them to size and still have enough detail.
The Paint on the inside of head light buckets are so rough it feels like sanding paper. The same goes for area below front seat where reserve tank and heater control is located. Jacques said to me he thought a would add a carpet here.
The rest is some images of paint runs
white spot in one image is polished through
Brown line on white pillar polished through
Unknown pattern on rear bumper some thing touched bumper when paint was wet
Inner engine lid was painted with a brush same as rear valance
But I think the images talk for them selves.

[Derek]

I must say that I'm quite surprised at the lack of comment from the bulk of people on this forum, given the graphic nature of the photo's posted. ST Man, I feel for you - I hope that you end up getting your kombi up to the standard it deserves so that we can all enjoy at least looking at it at shows and get together's in the future

[Tony Z]

I must say that I'm quite surprised at the lack of comment from the bulk of people on this forum, given the graphic nature of the photo's posted. ST Man, I feel for you - I hope that you end up getting your kombi up to the standard it deserves so that we can all enjoy at least looking at it at shows and get together's in the future

I can guarantee we all feel for ST Man.

On the other hand, Derek, this isnt my fight, nor is it yours. This is between ST Man and Splitbusaholic.
Maybe you see it as a lack of comment by others on the forum. Maybe some of us see it as too much comment from those who are not involved?

I am not taking sides nor am I attacking you. I am just making my point.
I dont feel I have a right to comment on this thread, thus I am not.

[Mars67]

^^^^^^ +1

[ST Man]

Hi to Derek, Tony, Mars all others

I thank you for the support and opinions. My general feeling is that I want all to know what happened so that they don't have the same problems. I would like to hear opinions on general quality etc BUT I agree that if other people get involved it can become nasty. I will take the nasty and loss of friendship that will come from this on myself.

I had to decide before I made this topic what would be the purpose of this post. After all is said and done would it have served a purpose. YES I am pissed and needed to vent I am not going to make this a high and mighty BS story of high morality. I waited more than a week after receiving papers to think about how I will approach this and get advice.
1. I will help others to be more careful and avoid additional costs they did not budget on or cant afford.
2. I will make every restorer and most importantly the one I was involved with aware that not all will sit and keep quite about issues. I tried this for a while until I was being "extorted" for more money to fix issues that they caused. I realised that I will only get bus fixed to my standard if I do it at my own cost away from Vintage Kombi.
3. If this means that every person signs a contract with restorer that outlines outcomes of a restoration and workmanship expected then I have added something to the forum. This will help both parties as one will know what is expected and the other knows what they will receive.
4. This post will also possibly force restorers to look more closely at the quality their partners put out. In my case the paint is a mess and this was not done by Vintage Kombi but someone they contracted. BUT if they had kept and eye on painters schedule and quality they would have not have had this issue. I still see them as main contractor and responsible for any subcontracted work. I have no relation to or knowledge of the painter on this project.
5. Ensure that restorers look more closely at the project they take on to get their quotes more accurate. In my case I took all parts for bus to Vintage Kombi and delivered it in boxes. The parts was lying in their facility for 6+ months. During this time they must have opened crates to remove sheet metal parts from them and weld in. During assembly I was told that bus has more assembly work than what they thought and it will cost more because I stripped suspension etc. They had parts for 6 months before they realised I stripped suspension. This is not my problem at this time

In summary I have a lot of personal thoughts and ideas of what is wrong/ went wrong in Vintage Kombi but will not add it to this post as it is my personal opinion and not fact. This will flare tempers and I don't have facts that can prove it so I keep it to myself. If I would have started this post with a personal attack on Jacques this post would not have been here anymore and I would prefer that no one starts a personal attack like that either. If you support it by saying sorry to hear I think its fine.

Leon

[Derek]

I must say that I'm quite surprised at the lack of comment from the bulk of people on this forum, given the graphic nature of the photo's posted. ST Man, I feel for you - I hope that you end up getting your kombi up to the standard it deserves so that we can all enjoy at least looking at it at shows and get together's in the future

I can guarantee we all feel for ST Man.

On the other hand, Derek, this isnt my fight, nor is it yours. This is between ST Man and Splitbusaholic.
Maybe you see it as a lack of comment by others on the forum. Maybe some of us see it as too much comment from those who are not involved?

I am not taking sides nor am I attacking you. I am just making my point.
I dont feel I have a right to comment on this thread, thus I am not.

I do respect the decision of others to not enter into the discussion - I had intended to keep out of it as well until Jacques referred in this thread to our previous fracas over the bad paintjob, etc. on another of his restorations, and that was what drew me in, as it's pretty clear now that I was not unreasonable in my comments at that time. I think we all appreciate Leon's approach to this situation, and I do believe that he has succeeded in his goals as stated above. We have all been through the frustration of paying good money to well-recommended workshops only to face disappointment and further costs to remedy shoddy workmanship and as I own six classic kombi's you can understand why I'm so combatant on this issue - and supportive of others who take the more direct approach as Leon has.

I believe that Vintage Kombi has done some fantastic restorations of which they can be justifiably proud, and we should not deny this. Jacques has built up a reputable business and deserves respect for that, as we all know that this is a stress-filled business. But when they do not get it right, the way that they and other workshops and restorers manage the situation is very important, as they either recover the situation and keep a loyal customer, or they do not...

So I will try now to keep out of this and give Jacques the opportunity to respond directly to Leon at some point...

[retrovan]

Must agree with Tony Z on this one....

For me to comment, when I was not part of the Job discussion, OR the delivery of the Van, would be the same as a blind man, in the forest on a dark moonless night, commenting on the beauty of the black mushrooms.

But what I would like to say, is that this restoration work is very much the same as me building painting plants, both cost a fortune, both 'seen" only in each party s head, and is very difficult to put on paper.

The customer "sees" a fantasy, with bands playing, dancing girls and fireworks for his few cents, the contractor, sees the surface of a rust bucket, untold hours of labor, parts that should be usable that are not, and not wanting to loose the job, will quote low, to get the work.

So what I am getting at is perception, expectation, interpretation, justification, limitation, and do-ability.

Both party's have a totally different picture in their heads about each one of the above.

NOT EASY .........

So let us all get our Pop Corn, and watch the outcome......... I never talk during a movie.

Herman

[Muderick]

You just did...

[Barry]

Some good points made above, but as this is an issue really close to my heart I will continue to comment when relevant. I will try to keep this general rather than about a specific situation

I have seen this type of situation evolve so many times it is scary. I believe that the only way to try to improve what is an all too common scenario is open and frank discussion. Perhaps this would be better served in a more general thread rather than one about a specific experience, but ultimately people commenting will refer to their own experiences anyway.
I also feel that it is necessary to allow space for some 'venting' - By the time a situation is at a point where one party feels the need to go public, a lot has already happened and there will be pent up emotions ready to spill over. Of course if a discussion 'devolves' into mudslinging and name calling (as it often does) then any possible benefit to the greater good is probably lost, so best to try to keep it civil....

I would sincerely like to believe that in the majority of such situations, no-one sets with anything but good intentions. But this is where I believe it starts to go wrong:

........Both party's have a totally different picture in their heads about each one of the above.......

Communication to bridge that gap is key, but it is far from simple. It takes way more, ongoing discussion then most would imagine.
As stated, a client will have a picture of what they expect, often not based on real world experience (gotta thank the TV shows ). I remain amazed by how often a customer of mine will commission work seemingly without feeling the need to go into much depth on their expectations. A kind of ' just let me know when it is done'....
From the vendor's side, doing restoration is downright unpredictable. Few understand how much. In my shop I simply WILL NOT give a firm quote on anything but the most simple and straight forward panel. Even then doing so has burnt me in the past. I will give an estimate to the best of my ability and experience, and inform the customer as soon as anything turns up that will add time and cost. Even this is problematic at times as a 'simple' job can end up taking two or three times as long for a myriad reasons. That may be fine for someone doing the work themselves, but for a commercial venture it can be a killer.
I am very fortunate to have many months of work booked already (too much for my shop in fact), but when one has set up a shop with all the investment and overheads, staff to be paid etc, and times are a little slow the situation is compounded. It is very easy and understandable to fall into the trap of quoting low to secure work. A slippery slope....
As much as Joe Public might think that this shouldn't happen, it does. A VERY large part of the responsibility sits squarely on the shoulders of the customer to go in with their eyes open and stay involved. And be ready to pull the plug the moment it looks like things are not going the way you expected.
While I understand that one would expect a professional outfit to deliver good work at a reasonable cost and within a reasonable timeframe (and they should) actually quantifying this beforehand is virtually impossible. Ever noticed that most established commercial panelbeaters are very hesitant to take on anything but regular crash repair on late model stuff? There is a very good reason for this....

I hope that this situation comes to some sort of resolution. But even if it doesn't, if this discussion contributes to a greater understanding of what is really involved (from both sides) and avoids even one such future experience, then it is worthwhile....