Bun Fight - restore or repair - be nice no personal attack

[retrovan]

As this is a well covered issue in classic cars, but never noted in a thread, I thought it will be interesting to get it out into the open

Many have stopped contributing on forums due to difference of opinions, now you have an open invitation to state you case without implementing someone or getting personal.

Lets have a meaning full opinionated thread on the difference and correctness of Restore or Repair

What is more important, to restore old classics or to get them on the road for future use.

Should we scrap the non-original classics so we can rob their parts to keep a few classics "Original" ??

Should we try to keep the few classic going with what ever parts are available without robbing Peter to fix Paul.??

Should all "Repaired" classics be placed on a register like pedophile, do we have metal plated welded on to stipulate its a replica./ repair / daily driver / non original

Should they be band from classic clubs.

Should the Restore have certification of where he has obtained his OEM parts, should he be held accountable for scrapping a repairable classic purely for the desire to have an "Original"

Should the guy that fits more powerfully motors to his classic be ostracized for saving a classic but wanting it to be more pleasurable to drive. ??

Should the repairer be given free licensing purely for keeping a classic on the road, so that the purist can butcher it in a few years time as he has the bucks to buy what he wants. ??

Now I have given you all an option, lets see what you have to say WITHOUT personal attack.

No names no pack drill, keep it clean guys

Maybe we take a pole at the end to see what the more popular opinion is.

ENJOY !!!!



Herman

[Tony Z]

You missed one option:
1) Why dont we just mind our own business and enjoy the cars and the building of them for what they are?
- Some people enjoy only driving their cars.
- Others only enjoy fixing/rebuilding them.
- Yet others enjoy displaying them and getting recognition for how good the car is, be it bought or built.
Some people enjoy a combination of all sorts.

Once again, the majority of this "VW" scene comes down to two main points,
1) they cars are known as cheap transport - thus cheap people usually buy into it and the people with money dont want to blow money on cheap shiv
2) our cars are being revived by the "popularity" of the cars, mostly from the younger generation.

either way, it comes down to the majority of this "scene" is run on the cheap. People are always looking for a cheap car, a cheap engine, a cheap whatever it is. The cars are stunningly reliable and with some of the modern parts available, can be made extremely reliable again but that costs money and most people seem to take advice from the oom down the road who hasnt actually got a clue.
Then come breaking up cars... why??? simple, a car is worth more in parts than as a whole. People are happy to buy a used engine for 5k or a "rebuilt" (painted) engine for 6k and then do it again when it fails and then spend 20k on a golf engine and conversion, when for 30k they could have had a perfectly reliable engine in the first place.
No-one will spend 15k on a pile of scrap, but if you break it up, you can get a few k for the engine, some for the gbox, some for the pan, some for the glass, some for the seats... and you'll get your 15k. So why not break it up if you can make an extra 10k for it?
Why is the stanced/lowered/rat look scene so popular? Because its fkn cheap. Take a rusted car, add more rust (some call it Patina), drop it to the floor by removing springs and you've got a brilliantly acceptable car.

There are some people who have endless issues with certain things like ignition. The currently available parts are crap. Yet, even when they are given (for free on a 1 year trial) new technology which simply bolts into their cars to replace the unreliable parts, they shy away from using them.
some of us are testing the new equipment out there and having good results. Yet, even with the good results, others shy away because the old unreliable methods of doing things are advised by more people more often, even though they are commonly known to fail at regular intervals.

As I said in another post. Give it a few years (maybe a few more still). The popularity will die down the old scrap will all have been broken up and the enthusiasts who are in it for the fun will start surfacing and really bringing the scene alive.

Me, I enjoy driving my cars and building my cars. I dont conform to any of the locally popular scenes and build my cars the way I want them to be. Most people will refer to the look I follow as the "German look" - old cars, modern technology. Its too expensive in SA to do it properly which is why some of my projects are taking me so long. But I am doing things my way and making a lot of parts myself to keep costs down and actually to sometimes improve on the commercially available parts.
What do you guys think of my cars? Well, frankly I couldnt give a fk. Its my hobby to build and drive them, even when it gets frustrating... so thats what I'll keep doing.

As far as the purpose of this topic/thread. I think it'll make people bicker more than actually achieve anything.

As Sean said, the scene hasnt got direction.
So anything we add wont really matter because of the quantity of people trying to either make money off it or trying to be popular.

My point? Well, I dont think I have one really... sorry for wasting your time

[73type2]

Further to the above posts, we must always try to be civil when we engage on this forum. I'm not surprised that some people who contributed in the past our now lurkers, or have simply left.

[retrovan]

You missed one option:
....................................................

As far as the purpose of this topic/thread. I think it'll make people bicker more than actually achieve anything. ..............

My point? Well, I dont think I have one really... sorry for wasting your time

Thanks Tony,

yes I have missed a hell of a lot of points, but want guys like you to raise them, and air them,

You have demonstrated the purpose of this thread with your reply, and We all thank you, as it is just one opinion.

And the threads purpose is to hi light ALL the opinions, and in this way we will see that our own opinion is not that of all.

Then we can respect others opinions, and accommodate them within this forum.

Yes you have a point, and yes its a very strong point, and its not directed at anybody so we can accept it as such.

I too have a lot of points but will reserve them towards the end, when all have had their say.

Further to the above posts, we must always try to be civil when we engage on this forum. I'm not surprised that some people who contributed in the past are now lurkers, or have simply left.

This is the complete purpose of this thread, where you can say whats on your mind for years, as you are talking in general and not implying anyone, but did not want to post it in-case you offend someone.

But as you are getting more frustrated due to lack of understanding the other guys mind, you either leave in a huff, or launch an personal attack, just to vent your self.

So now its your turn to spill your guts @73type2, we stand back to hear......

Herman

[sean]

Eish, I have quite a lot to say, but it’s a lot to type.

I agree with Tony.

This definition of affordability or cheap must also be elaborated.

In a simple forum.
Buy cheap tyres (Dunlop or Chinese or something) every 20 000km or buy Michelin that cost double but last 100 000km. So essentially the “more expensive” tyre is actually the cheaper one, not to mention the improved handling etc inc in the price.

Same with the engines as Tony mention, someone will keep using a mix of pieces making an abortion motor and keep repairing with rubbish when if they just did it properly from day one and spent the little bit more initially, they would save in the long run, have a proper match of parts and have reliability.

What about the bodies?
1. Keep paying a panel beater every year to cover up rust and dents with body filler that will start coming off later.
2. Spend more initially with replacing bad areas with new panels, use a quality paint that won’t fade and your body looks good for the next 40 years. Don’t forget that it will just look better during the next 40 years as well.

Who can stand back and accept a shiv job when if a little bit of extra time and effort was put in to do a good job?

I really don’t have an issue with modified cars, but I have an issue with badly modified cars. That is 99% of them out there.

This is to you personally Herman and it irritates me substantially because I don’t understand you. Why do you have an issue with high standards of work? Why is this an issue. Surely it’s what everyone would want to achieve?

Your definition of cutting up / stripping cars must also be elaborated.

I don’t know anyone that has stripped a good car to make another one better. I do know many that strip a rotten car to fix a much better one.

You must be careful when it comes to making 1 car
from 2 cars. I know someone on this forum who took an oval beetle and made it a split window by grafting in parts from a cut up split window. There could have been an oval and a split window on our roads if more patience, time and effort was taken......

I give advice on this forum, it will always be based on opinion. No one is forced to agree with me. Use it, don’t use it. I’ve still got my first Kombi from when I was 10 years old. That’s 22 years ago. I’ve dedicated my life to preserving and enjoying these old vehicles. I’m here to stay. Please, those that are short sighted, don’t do anything stupid for those that are here to stay.

FYI Herman, fully restored cars to high end quality or that are original are fully capable of driving. Not sure why you believe nice cars can’t drive.

[retrovan]

Hey !! Hey !! Its not a lets hang Herman Tread.. You need to read the 1st post, NO PERSONAL attacks.

My Lawyer will see you in the morning....

I can take it, with lots or tears, but I can....

Even though you directed a lot to me, I reply in general

But it is easy to comment on others doings, when you do not sit in their predicaments.

Not finding out why and how, but sitting on a high horse.

Finding a near perfect classic is not everybody's dream, but a lot of guys enjoy the build the struggle, the daily learning of doing new things, the ability to say "I am not perfect, and I am no expert, but I did it my self and I can enjoy it when I am done."

Do I personally Like to do an perfect job, YES, but it depends what it is, and what I am going to do with it when done.

But this threads not about me, but opinions in GENERAL.

I WILL address the white elephant in the room when done...

Herman

[Jdt1976]

Hey !! Hey !! Its not a lets hang Herman Tread.. You need to read the 1st post, NO PERSONAL attacks.


Even though you directed a lot to me,

Herman

Was thinking it was aimed at me

[Haans]

Sheet!!!,....now I am confused,.......thought it was about aircooled cars!...... anyway my ego can't get in the way because I know too little!!

They say when elephants fight,..... the grass gets trampled to moerengone!!

Still love you all,......

Haans

[Derek]

I have a lot to contribute to this thread. But I won't, as some people here just can't help themselves and make personal attacks regardless. For that reason we have lost a lot of forum members. Very sad...

[retrovan]

I have a lot to contribute to this thread. But I won't, as some people here just can't help themselves and make personal attacks regardless. For that reason we have lost a lot of forum members. Very sad...

I totally agree, Maybe they have not learned to read... very sad.....

The reason for this thread, is to hi-light the problems with this forum, and to allow all to respect others opinions and reasons for why they do things and the circumstances that they in, that dictates the things they do. NO body does anything without a reason.

We do not all live a sheltered life, so we have to live life with the cards we are dealt as life goes on.

As I have a thick skin, and I know my reasoning for doing things are sound, I will let things roll off me FOR NOW.

This forum is loosing guys like flys, all insulted and despondent, when asked for help, and belittled because of what they want to archive in life.

Great knowledge like Impi, driven off and lost to the young ones that may have become aircooled fans.

My firm believe is when someone wants info to do something, and you can offer him the options then do so, BUT when he has made up his mind, do not call him stupid, but give him the correct information to do what he wants.

As time goes by he will probably go back to original, when he has cash, and time and finds that he has had his fun.

VW has all ways been a peoples car, and if a car has been modified or is modified, it can always be brought back to the original as there are so many guys making parts for it now, you could build a new car from scratch.

The sad thing is that when you build a car from replacement parts the opinionated will tell you that car is original, but if build up from genuine German pressings, you are told its been canobilised. Go figure....

Now I know, even though I have been keeping this a GENERAL discussion, NO PERSONAL ATTACKS, that the ........... (fill in your own noun) will give a very personalized attack on my person, family and religion, but this has to be said.

And as said, I will tackle the very large elephant in the room later........
(why did I bring up this Post, its because of something that's been going on since I started my beetle project, and has just become too much at this years George show, but more on this later, if still allowed on this forum.)

Mods, If I have overstepped my line, please lock and delete this THREAD

And ban me from this forum.

Herman

[Dawie]

Maybe some personality thing, or our individual experiences when still small children?
Would this post be related to commentary about originality from:
A):Posters on this forum.
B):People attending shows.
C):About "not supposed to be using your classic car as a daily driver".
D):Those who, instead of using the commonly and very cheaply available t25/Transporter 3 shape kombi, insist on modifying a baywindow by fitting some cast-iron watercooled job.

Do whe really need approval from other people about what we do with our cars?

Once i was confronted by this talkative, huge, (in the horizontal plane), lady. Her smallish hushand in tow, (confirming every word se utters with a knod.) Apparently member of some "Expert Hooligan group" on Faece group.
Informed me that i an am an utter idiot, because i have, according to her, "cut up a split bus to look like a double cab." According to her superior knowledge, VW never ever made split double cabs.
Told her: "Oops, sorry, wo'nt do that again", while, in my heart, laughing at this silly bitch.

Then there is my oval, which i owns for most of it's, (and my), life. Only VW parts, no Ford/Datsun/Golf parts near it. Not everything period correct. Although it has a propery functioning thermostat and heater/demister system. As a young child, i, at the time, badly wanted a proper VW disc brake, ball jointed front suspension. (Having experienced the great, rare, (in sa), imported spec 67 1500 only beetle). Getting lots of comment about the incorrectness of this beetle. But i'm in no hurry to change things back on this car.

Was under the impression that Impi left because he wanted to focus on sport-type vw's like Pumas. He mentioned that he never liked kombis, and he thought this forum have mainly kombi content.

Sleeping time for now...

[Haans]

Good morning !!,.....it seems that the testosterone levels are SLOWLY subsiding

Haans

[splitbusahollic]

Time to get out the popcorn !

Retrovan, please turn on the spellcheck on your pc, i struggle to understand the meaning of some words every now and then..

Derek , i thought You had left for good traveling the world or something ?

i think Sean has a valid point, show respect for the these old cars by rather doing a good restoration than a mix and match slap dash just for the sake of being able to try and drive it to the next show....most times not making it. I wonder how many cheaply restored cars turn back on these trips without making it to the destination ?

I did see some very hacked half restored projects at George this year.....more so than previous years...rather sad sight though...they should only allow completed vehicles in....but then again George has lost some of it's lustre and become a bit stagnant in my opinion.

With all the parts availability and affordability these days it is possible to do a good job restoring a bus, beetle...but the need to do it properly should be there too..the aim shouldn't be to see how cheap you can do it but how Nice you can do it ...

just my "so called commercial restorer's" opinion

[Jdt1976]

Ai, I was wondering if I should get involved with the politricks.
Best I don't. I am here to enjoy the knowledge of others and might be able to help now and then.

[splitbusahollic]

Ai, I was wondering if I should get involved with the politricks.
Best I don't. I am here to enjoy the knowledge of others and might be able to help now and then.

Get involved Jaco nothing like a bit of politricks to spice things up a bit give Us your thoughts on this